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PostSubject: Re: Native American Wisdom   Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:38 am

Romana wrote:
My mother used to say that sin was simply separation from God. Some of this would then be unavoidable, since humans are not God and are inherently imperfect, but much more comes from disregard for God and what he wants.

were our parents able to provide tangible proof for such circular argumentation?

In a broader sense, one might say sin is nothing more than our failure to live up to our potential, turning our back on our gifts, on the opportunities we have to make the world a better place.

I can accept the idea of sin defined in this way, but I prefer more direct terminology that does not require such mental gymnastics to reinterpret. In most contexts, the term sin is dogmatic and downright hurtful.

how far are we in agreement, so far, then?
for me to understand both the mental gymnastics and your loathing them has always been a very worthwhile "occupation" - i.e. when i didn't feel downright rejected.


Last edited by lavender orchid on Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Native American Wisdom   Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:22 pm

I am making a bit of a distinction between concepts and terminology here. "Sin" has been defined and understood in different ways. The understanding I mentioned above (not fulfilling one's potential) is worthwhile, but might better be conveyed using words other than "sin". More conventional notions of "sin" are what I find dogmatic and hurtful: tied to slavish obedience to creeds that are far from universal; judgmental and limiting rather than enlightening and encouraging. If I have any loathing here, it is for this second concept of "sin", as well as for the careless use of the word when something else is meant. I do not understand your opinion well enough to determine level of agreement.
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PostSubject: Re: Native American Wisdom   Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:56 pm

maybe i am too undereducated to even begin a dialog with concepts or conceptualizations.

and surely my repertoire of approaches is too limited. good enough for learning "self-defense" on the other side, i forbid myself to assume.
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PostSubject: Native Wisdom   Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:24 pm

Interesting. I find the concept of "God" fascinating. I shall address some quotes. If I have time I shall try to address both views of lavender as well as Romana. These are your quotes Romana. "...that sin was simply separation from God." I have difficulty with this one. Intellectually it sounds more than sound. My concept of God is we have an interrelationship with everything. if we do not acknowledge this then in a sense we can be termed to "sin." This means disrespectful toward each other and indeed all life. In this sense we all sin. I find the concept of sin of no use. But for others it makes sense. More power to them. I suppose. I also suppose it is a matter of semantics. To me sin has such dark connotations. It also to me makes us helpless and at the mercy of God, some outside force and not the rulers of our own individual journeys. I just choose to acknowledge "sin" as not a useful construct. To me it is self defeating. It does not prove useful. To me personally it keeps us in the dark ages. "...might say sin is nothing more than our failure to live up to our potential, turning back on our gifts, on the opportunities we have to make the world a better place." To me this is more useful. I still must confess to a terrible dislike of the sin term. I prefer ignorance. I believe we all are ignorant and have much to learn. The first step is to acknowledge our ignorance. Or our not knowing the sum total of everything. "...prefer more direct terminology.." As do I. One which is realistic. One that is not self defeating. "...sin is dogmatic and downright harmful." I could not agree more. These are words I would use. "...conventional notions of "sin" are what I find dogmatic and hurtful : tied to slavish obedience to creeds..." Romana you are right.
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PostSubject: native wisdoom   Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:42 pm

lavender orchid you seem hurt. I do not want to assume. One may say angry. You
keyed in a lot of Romana's words. I will share and address them. I also wish to
endeavor knowing your thoughts and perceptions as well as feelings on the subject. I will
endeavor to quote you as well. Romana wrote, "...disregard for God and what he wants."
This implies to me that you believe in God. Everyone in the forum is spiritual in a
different way. These are words you highlighted. Romana wrote "...nothing more than
our failure to live up to our potential, turning back on our gifts..." I would assume you
agree with Romana here. I need clarification. I want to know your point of view, your
feelings on the subject and your perspective. lavender orchid wrote, "For me to understand
the mental gymnastics and your loathing them has always been a very worthwhile "occupation"
i.e. when I don't feel downright rejected." I am sorry you feel this way. This sounds hurtful.
Is it so? In which case you are down right loved by the little community we are a part of.
Please share your feelings. With compassion and wishing to know your feelings.
LightSun Peaceweaver I love you sunny
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PostSubject: Re: Native American Wisdom   Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:17 pm

lightsun:

your thread it is
on native american wisdom

how dare i disgrace it in anyway

not hurt
hurting for such a long time
which is very different
and anger the most irrelevant part
of sadness

in a pm just minutes ago
the chosen messenger was
to the best of my knowledge
this one
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PostSubject: Re: Native American Wisdom   Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:04 pm

Within the words of wise red people rides the horse of destruction of our paste faced race. Could a soul understand the sadness of knowing there is no undoing of the past. There is no changing what has already been done. It is there to relive forever, over and over. A death sentence of karma we will never outrun. As we have sown, so shall we reap. Crying or Very sad No Crying or Very sad No .

It is only my knowledge of the fact that I am only bound to this heritage here on earth. That is my pillar of strength. That is my forgiveness for my ancestors and living relatives. It is the reason for refusing cultural boundaries to any extent I can. I may look like them but I am me. I am sad.

Birds
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PostSubject: Re: Native American Wisdom   Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:45 pm

undoing the past by recognizing my present looks, my present belonging to "another" race and/or culture?

all i know "we" have "to do" is unlock our souls with the resonances of our original being. (imho)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hamxug3U1N0

gifts accepted, in "poor" receivership. words don't come easy. but they are gems to be treasured.
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PostSubject: Native   Tue Feb 02, 2010 6:08 am

January 20
I will follow the white man's trail. I will take him as my friend, but I will not bend my back to his burdens. I will be cunning as a coyote. I will ask him to understand his ways, then I will prepare the way for my children, and their children. The Great Spirit has shown me-a day will come when they will outrun the white man in his own shoes.
Many Horses




Did you know?
Thay Appaloosa horses, though named by Canadian - French explorers, were actually developed by the Nez Perce Indians.
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PostSubject: Re: Native American Wisdom   Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:44 am

I wonder what sin was before the christian word sin. Perhaps just a feeling that what you did was wrong. What rules regulated it. If you took all the references to what Christians consider sin and applied them to other older cultures, what would we find...the feeling of doing wrong I figure is relative to every culture. What is ok for one is not for another type situation.

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PostSubject: Re: Native American Wisdom   Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:11 pm

lightsun wrote:
January 20
I will follow the white man's trail. I will take him as my friend, but I will not bend my back to his burdens. I will be cunning as a coyote. I will ask him to understand his ways, then I will prepare the way for my children, and their children. The Great Spirit has shown me-a day will come when they will outrun the white man in his own shoes.
Many Horses




Did you know?
Thay Appaloosa horses, though named by Canadian - French explorers, were actually developed by the Nez Perce Indians.

jesus used similar words, be as clever as foxes, as wise as snakes (dunno if it's fortunate or not being unable to quote precise chapter and verse)..

detecting kindred spirits in every culture is great. great day that, indeed. sunny
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PostSubject: Re: Native American Wisdom   Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:17 pm

Prettybirds wrote:
I wonder what sin was before the christian word sin. Perhaps just a feeling that what you did was wrong. What rules regulated it. If you took all the references to what Christians consider sin and applied them to other older cultures, what would we find...the feeling of doing wrong I figure is relative to every culture. What is ok for one is not for another type situation.
The Old Testament is full of laws and prohibitions governing behavior of at least the Jewish people prior to the birth of Jesus. Whether a term like "sin" was applied to infractions of these rules, I do not know, but I believe some atonement procedures were described. Some of these, like the Ten Commandments, were adopted by Christians as well. Yes, ideas of right and wrong are indeed relative. Overlay on that the contrast between what a human being might instinctively feel is wrong (murder, slander, etc.) and what society dictates is wrong. Disconnects here are at the root of many moral quandries.

Prettybirds wrote:
Within the words of wise red people rides the horse of destruction of our paste faced race. Could a soul understand the sadness of knowing there is no undoing of the past. There is no changing what has already been done. It is there to relive forever, over and over. A death sentence of karma we will never outrun. As we have sown, so shall we reap. Crying or Very sad No Crying or Very sad No .

It is only my knowledge of the fact that I am only bound to this heritage here on earth. That is my pillar of strength. That is my forgiveness for my ancestors and living relatives. It is the reason for refusing cultural boundaries to any extent I can. I may look like them but I am me. I am sad.
I see my karma as resulting from my own actions, not the actions of any other person, including my ancestors or family. I can hardly be responsible for something that happened before I was even alive, something I had no chance to influence. The most I can do in the here-and-now is to recognize these injustices and work to correct them and to avoid future recurrences. Of course we cannot change what has been done; this applies to the good in history as well as the bad. If the sadness of what is past paralyzes me from acting in the present, however, then I do become responsible.
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PostSubject: Re: Native American Wisdom   Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:41 pm

where would my becoming responsible come from
if not from being responsive
i.e. from being aware of an innate ability in all human beings
theirs being given "dominion" of all the earth

whatever was written for the records
had a reason
leading to a cause
one should think perception is manifold
beyond logic breaking its perfect law
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PostSubject: Native Wisdom   Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:57 am

January 21
O Great Spirit whose voice I hear in the winds, I come to you as one of your many children. I need your strength and wisdom. Make me strong not to be superior to my brother, but to be able to fight my greatest enemy : Myself.
Chief Dan George (1899-1981)
Coast Salish

On this date in Native American history :
January 21, 1969 : Navajo Community College (now called Dine College), the first all Indian operated community college opened.
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PostSubject: Native Wisdom   Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:06 am

January 22
The idea of full dress in preparation for a battle comes not from a belief that it will add to the fighting ability. The preparation is for death in case that should be the result of the conflict. Every Indian wants to look his best when he goes to meet the Great Spirit so the dressing up is done whether in imminent danger in an uncoming battle or a sickness or injury at times of peace.
Wooden Leg (1858-1940)
Cheyenne warrior and tribal judge.
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PostSubject: Native Wisdom   Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:21 am

January 23
There is dignity about the social intercourse of old Indians which reminds me of a stroll through a winter forest.
Frederick Remington (1861-1909)
Non Native artist and sculptor.



In remembrance :
January 23, 1870, at Marias River, Montana, " the greatest slaughter of Indians ever made by United States troops," leaves 170 to 215 Indians dead in the snow. They are to be remembered.
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PostSubject: Native American Wisdom   Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:30 am

January 24
A people without a history is like wind on the buffalo grass.
Teton Sioux proverb


In remembrance :
Of Ira Hayes (of the Pima tribe), famous for raising the United States flag over Iwo Jima with fellow marines during World War II. A bronze statue and postage stamp later commemorated the event. He died on January 24, 1955, at the age of 33. Bob Dylan immortalized him in the song "The Ballad of Ira Hayes."
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PostSubject: Native American Wisdom   Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:07 am

January 25
The Great Spirit ...made it to always change...sunlight to play...might to sleep ...everything good.
Flying Hawk
Oglala Clan 19th century


On this date in Native American history :
January 25, 1968 : The Mescalero Apaches were awarded $8.5 million from the United States Indian Claims Commission as compensation for land illegally ceded in the 1800's.
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PostSubject: Native Wisdom   Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:48 am

January 26
Will Rogers, humorist/writer/actor, was born in Indian Territory (Oklahoma) in 1879. Speaking of his Native American heritage, he said, both my folks were Indian. Both my mother and father had Cherokee blood in them. (I was) born and raised in Indian Territory. "Course we're not the American whose ancestors came over on the Mayflower, but they met 'em at the boat where they landed."

Famous for his commentaries and writings, he was known as the "Indian Cowboy" from the Cherokee Nation, and was one of the. most popular entertainers of his time. In 1918 he went to Hollywood and starred in many features, becoming such a box office sensation that by 1934 he was voted the most popular make actor in Hollywood. Will Rogers also served as mayor of Beverly Hills, was instrumental in the presidential election of Franklin D. Roosevelt, and even rejected a nomination for governor. of Oklahoma. He died in 1935 in a plane crash in Alaska.
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PostSubject: Re: Native American Wisdom   Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:59 am

Moral of the story....

It matters not where you came from but where you are...

I love you
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PostSubject: Re: Native American Wisdom   Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:33 am

lightsun wrote:
January 21
O Great Spirit whose voice I hear in the winds, I come to you as one of your many children. I need your strength and wisdom. Make me strong not to be superior to my brother, but to be able to fight my greatest enemy : Myself.
Chief Dan George (1899-1981)
Coast Salish

On this date in Native American history :
January 21, 1969 : Navajo Community College (now called Dine College), the first all Indian operated community college opened.

lightsun:

why does the day never seem to appear on the horizon when my self is no longer, or better: has never been anyone's greatest enemy?

strength and wisdom grant me the courage to say so. it's not cowardice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5QkfkTJIqc&feature=rec-fresh+div-f-2-HM

http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2007/2/5/82391.html

when will we see the day that gathers our daily experiences to stories of delight to tell one another knowing, it has been alright?
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PostSubject: Re: Native American Wisdom   Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:48 pm

Dearest Lavender, may I field an answer.... I love you

Consider all the times you felt compassion for another and wished you could truly understand what they were going through and thus be the best help you can....
Now would you consider a truth...

A woman, tired and beaten from the absolutely horrific childbirth of a stillborn. Not only is she physically ravaged but emotionally as well. Instead of just collapsing in grief and tears, she kneels as if in prayer and offers her face to the wind and says
" Thank-you oh spirit mother for giving me this experience. It is truly only now that I shall be able to understand anothers grief the same, I shall recover and be smarter because of it."


Warmth and love ya all...

PS, the same applies to doing wrong, we must give understanding and acceptance to its importance. The 2 sides...
There is you and the person who did you wrong, you fell hurt and wary, the other person feels bad. (whether they change or not, they feel bad). Both good lessons in survival. Flip it around to being the other person who you screwd. Lessons still apply.
The need to strive for being good is the check, being all good is not the answer.

I love you flower I love you
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PostSubject: Re: Native American Wisdom   Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:56 pm

dearest Prettybirds:

thank you for your endeavour to show me just another side of the same rhinestone.
it could be a facet of a diamond, too.

thanks for letting me know how stupid i really must be.

p.s. while concentrating on diamond cutting and the likely attainment of mastery, we are rarely in each other's presence.

i.o.w., smart means, before you leave me i must leave you. same pain, less shame.

but the heart is foolish enough to do with the illusion.
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PostSubject: Re: Native American Wisdom   Mon Feb 08, 2010 6:29 pm

You are from from stupid, you are amazingly emotional. I don't ever want you to be different, I just wonder if you like yourself as much as I do. If I remeber correctly, right off the bat you wondered if I was a practical sort and this troubled you. Well, I am. From that practicality comes a need to find coping tools. That is all my first letter meant.
Please don't ever stop trying to understand me, I don't want to stop understanding you...

It is from your emotions that you get your beauty. That is who you are. You are making the most of it and are way more helpful than you think. I bet everybody on this board will agree.

PS, I do love your humour although its timid like you...

I find my inspiration in wondering why things have happened, not in the fact that they do. Welocome to practicality... I love you
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PostSubject: Re: Native American Wisdom   Mon Feb 08, 2010 6:34 pm

Free will is the ability to do happily that which you must do. Carl Jung
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