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Prettybirds

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PostSubject: Thought without words   Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:52 am

What does a thought without words mean to you?
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lightsun
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PostSubject: thought without words   Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:29 pm

Thinking in concepts, imagery, and pictures.
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Romana
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PostSubject: Re: Thought without words   Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:36 pm

Yes. A raw idea in the mind, before any attempt is made to express it in the outside world. These are diamonds in the rough. Cutting them requires great care, lest their brilliance be muted and their facets clouded. It is to this end that I strive for precision and facility with language. Alas, I am hopeless at such other modes of expression as painting or drama.
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PostSubject: thought without words   Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:07 am

I would not have thought to share this but Romana you triggered a concept in me. Many a time I have an intuitive alarm bell that goes off in my head. I say there is something here I just can't put a finger on it or clearly define it. I sip coffee and go after that subliminal perception or thought or feeling like a diver diving after pearls. Eventually I get closer and break through a surface and eureka I can put it into words. It is quite a miraculous felt feeling. The mystery is that it is so clearly undefined until I can bring it into focus. This happens when I happen to be in interpersonnel situations and someone makes a comment. A silent alarm goes off in my head. I then almost go into a trance trying to capture and encapsulate that hidden room where a door of perception is only slightly ajar. Behind that door is a hidden jewel or wisdom waiting to be defined and brought back to the surface. A new found insight just like now you unintentionally triggered this perception of mine which I have just shared.
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PostSubject: Re: Thought without words   Sat Jan 16, 2010 6:02 am

About 3 years ago now I had a small stroke. I remeber it clearly, thankfully it only lasted a minute or so. It came on in 3 waves of excrutiating sharp pain in my head. It litterally left me dazed and confused. Silly me, instead of going to the doctors I shut down mentally and just went to bed.
I remember upon waking that it took a half hour to understand the concept of my feet and how they felt. First there was the inability to get passed one word in a sentence. By the time I was saying the word I had forgotten what I was trying to say. Next was the inability to recognize what words I was trying to use. I could feel my feet but couldn't recognize the words to decribe them. When I would say the word I did not understand it.
My feet felt like clubs. Years later I am much better. Still with some effect but much better. I think what I find the most interesting is that if I repeat a word or sentence or math equation more than 2 or 3 times to myself as I think about it I no longer recognize the word or such. I end up in total confusion, doesn't help my concentration much No Laughing
It sometimes happens to me through vision too. I will be somewhere I know very well, out of the blue I don't recognize where I am. What a panic. Seems I always know what I was doing or where I was going but it is as if I took a wrong turn somewhere and litterally ended up lost.

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PostSubject: thoughts without words   Mon Feb 08, 2010 6:00 pm

I am now addressing some of Romana's quotes from her responses.
(1). "...diamonds in the rough. Cutting them requires great care, lest there brilliance be muted and their facets clouded." I agree whole heartedly. I believe deep insights are special. But one must go through a labyrinth of thought and misdirection before finding one's true compass, and that is one's original vision. A person must also be ready to let their ego go and follow the truth wherever it may lead them. For this one needs a curious mind. An open mind, as well as analytic thought, in addition deductive reasoning. In other words objective thought following the original subjective intuition that helps lead people in new directions.

(2). "...I strive for precision and facility with language." It is very odd Romana. You are the rational thinker and "rational mastermind," according to MBTI. I am INFP vs. or in conjunction with your NT faculties. Yet your writing strikes a powerful cord in my being. You apparently are able to see reality clearer than most mortals. I do not know if it is mental discipline or your formative child years. I also strive for perfection in my words. I reach out to this divine force and the wisdom channels through me. The caveat is that one must ask the right questions to harness this aptitude of mine. You have this capability. You ask pertinent questions. You are as a laser seeking to pin point the truth. My way is more broad and general and it requires people like you to help ground me.
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PostSubject: Re: Thought without words   Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:34 pm

lightsun wrote:
I believe deep insights are special. But one must go through a labyrinth of thought and misdirection before finding one's true compass, and that is one's original vision. A person must also be ready to let their ego go and follow the truth wherever it may lead them. For this one needs a curious mind. An open mind, as well as analytic thought, in addition deductive reasoning. In other words objective thought following the original subjective intuition that helps lead people in new directions.
Again, your compliments are undeserved. But I agree about the labyrinth of thought to understand and express deep insights. I am going through this now with the topic I alluded to in my last PM. I am not sure what is meant by letting the ego go, though, or at least how it is actually done. Perhaps if I did, sorting out my present thoughts would proceed more expeditiously.
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PostSubject: conventional   Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:47 pm

I am writing a partial quote that is mine. LightSun wrote, "...must ask the right questions to harness this aptitude of..." and "...pertinent questions...a laser to pin point the truth." Romana this is deeply felt. I will not belabor the point, however everything I said is true to my subjective universe. I believe it. I feel it, and I think it. Observations : (1). You ask questions. The questions are deep and have far reaching ramifications. Thus I answer you in multiple pages to adequetly address your questions, concerns, and points. (2). Your mind is rational and will key in on discrepencies in logic and inconsistencies in logic. (3) No one else has made me think as far and with as deep contemplation as you have. (4). I am deeply, profoundly honored. To use another metaphor _(I was a chess champion) Dialogue with you is very engaging. But it is also a challenge. It forces me to think, like a chess match between comrades. In our case there are no losers. I would hope we both gain and learn from "each chess match." Romana wrote, "...least how it actually is done." In regard to letting go of one's ego. There are many paths to the top of the mountain. Different Gurus, or scientists, Behaviorists, hypnotists, theoreticians, philosophers and so on ad infintum will
go about it in different ways and address it in different ways. I will say what I understand. (5). When a person can quiet their mind and truly listen to and reflect the other person's reality they are as a clear lake or pond. Or a mirror. (6). They are not triggered. They listen without judgment and meet the initiate where they are, at their point of maturity. They then help lead and guide another further along the path by being a good role model, good listener, good problem solver, & friend confidant to be trusted yet also respected. They are a master who has let go of their ego. I can do this for short durations. I can not do it for long periods.
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PostSubject: Re: Thought without words   Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:11 pm

lightsun wrote:
In regard to letting go of one's ego. There are many paths to the top of the mountain. Different Gurus, or scientists, Behaviorists, hypnotists, theoreticians, philosophers and so on ad infintum will
go about it in different ways and address it in different ways. I will say what I understand. (5). When a person can quiet their mind and truly listen to and reflect the other person's reality they are as a clear lake or pond. Or a mirror. (6). They are not triggered. They listen without judgment and meet the initiate where they are, at their point of maturity. They then help lead and guide another further along the path by being a good role model, good listener, good problem solver, & friend confidant to be trusted yet also respected. They are a master who has let go of their ego. I can do this for short durations. I can not do it for long periods.
This is described in the context of relating to another person. How does one let go of one's ego in order better to contemplate one's own inner thoughts? Can it even be done here, since one's inner thoughts are part of one's self rather than external?
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PostSubject: Re: Thought without words   Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:18 pm

Hi Romana, to me letting go of ones ego involves true acceptance of yourself. To realize that what happened should have happened thus full acceptance regardless of the role you play. Even God always encourages us to be human, live the human experience on all fronts and then to accept and forgive, both ourselves and others. It is by thinking we didn't deserve, we get lost in our egos...didn't deserve the pile of shit loaded on your plate or the promotion you earned through capitalization.
Perhaps just simply a thanks for an abstract job well done.



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PostSubject: conventionlal   Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:37 pm

Prettybirds (oh by the way nice picture) made a good argument or angle of this extremely important question. This
is my take. First I am an initiate in my search for wisdom.

Romona wrote, '...described in the context of relating to another person."
I do not want to be redundant, but each of the 16 MBTI types may approach this in a different way. Some inconceivably can not even see. I am certainly no guru. Again, redundantly hypnotists. Gurus, Behaviorists, Christians, yoga masters etc., will all go about it in different ways. There are many paths to the top of the mountain.

The way I see it currently, at my stage of self actualization is the ability to focus on one thing for :20 minutes. Hopefully twice a day. It is the way to condition the mind and in times of crises, one can go back to the mind set of peace.

I will share with you my greatest peace. I swim my 2,000 strokes in the ocean. I then float for :20 minutes and in my mind envision clouds and a beautiful white dove symbolizing truth and beauty to me. This is for :20 minutes. I leave in a state of high and euphoria. This techniques helps others more so than some. That is why there are many paths.

Doing this mental exercise one leaves one ego. Hopefully they can recapture this mental discipline in times of stress or trying to get into another person's universe.
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PostSubject: Re: Thought without words   Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:37 pm

Lightsun, whatever class it is if you are the teacher I am there.

Oh so respectfully
Birds
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PostSubject: conventional wisdom   Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:27 pm

Humbly I am honored. Prettybirds some people understand my words. Others quite frankly ridicule that which they do not understand. What I say may challenge a person's sensibilities and cause a cognitive dissonance. Their entire universe is shook up and they can not see or hear what it is I say. "They have eyes but can not see, they have ears but can not hear." I am glad we resonate so profoundly. I am in a state of euphoria that you are a thinker according to the NBTI. I honestly offer my humble thanks in regard to your kind words.
Blessings. LightSun
sunny sunny farao
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PostSubject: Re: Thought without words   Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:25 am

If I ever ridicule, please correct me. People do accuse first in others what they fear the most in themselves.

You are wise and kind Lightsun, all you need to be my friend....the rest will come out in the wash eh?
Perhaps in the times you are misunderstood you are planting the seed of enlightenment and it does take time for germination....

I am slowly beginning to understand the INTP character and yes it fits to a T and I am sorry if sometimes I am abrasive....truly sorry. pale

I don't know how I feel about it, perhaps sad first....sad that I had so much potential and never the opportunity to use it well...what a waste! I wish I could give to someone better able to use it.
Sad that again, in my search to find a personal reason the get out of my head failed again....I just found more reasons to be reclusive.....
Another reason to really feel dumb..... Crying or Very sad

Birds Sad
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PostSubject: Re: Thought without words   Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:07 pm

Prettybirds:

i know what makes you cry right now.

attempting to get out of one's head is futile: recognizing you have been out or in is all that is required.
judging others is given up automatically in those precious moments. that's not to say that with consciousness raised, one becomes less aware of judgment being almost every moment, and you begin to ask, how would it have been, otherwise?

humbly acknowledging my limitations in mercy and grace.

di-stances................
alone or all-one.

but yes, Sad even more often.
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PostSubject: Re: Thought without words   Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:38 pm

Hi LO, in this lifetime all I truly want is to understand physics. I feel sometimes like I am just to far behind to warrant teaching...

Thank-you so much for the hug, I really need one right now. Actually I need you to grab me by the arm and not let me run away...give me a good shake while your at it... No

I love you
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PostSubject: Re: Thought without words   Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:08 am

lightsun wrote:
Thinking in concepts, imagery, and pictures.

Prettybirds' question and your answer imply thought and thinking as something primarily productive.

to me, thought is working with impressions and perceptions and, therefore, not produced in the sense of a homo faber creating out of nothing and claiming his creation for himself, defending it as his sole possession and take it to market in competition. such are ubiquitous concepts, imho.

i think we here might not have been on the same page. still, this is important to me.
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PostSubject: Re: Thought without words   Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:44 am

Hi everyone, I have always been of the opinion that thought is a bi-product of a vibrational and chemical understanding of more than just our immediate surroundings. More so than just the chemical reaction involved in sight and hearing. I do view it as a productive process. I don't see it as the beginning but as an end result.
To me, the languages that ran evolution existed in length of time and complexity that far overshadow our organic ability of thought and speech. I wonder about the given the complexity of our brains and the given abilities of the organism that we know about and can't use, thermal noise which to me seems to interfere with our receptivity to the vibrational language, is it perhaps an effect that was unexpected by the organisms combining to create our brain, a thorn to the ultimate purpose of which we do not (perhaps should not?) have the ability to be rid of every time we grow a rose. I think the understanding of quieting the brain (meditation)developed because the organisms found that as a way to get around the problem and thus ultimately it occurred to us that this might work.
I am not scared to think that our brains are, at least at this stage in evolution, very inhibiting to an over all understanding of the "Quantum" processes that to me define and spur evolution.

A good example is music. We take the notes that we hear and interpret them into thoughts, feelings, words even. A note is more than just simply a note.... it is a language, one of many we do understand in a world of vastly more that we don't. We understand what that note means before we react with thoughts, feelings and words.
I have always had an interest in the use of drums in many Native cultures. I am intrigued by the impact on self from both being in the presence of and the concentration of, the vibration that exudes from those noises/notes. Vibration is a language IMO. It interests me how people feel so enlightened and understanding from the experience, up lifted even. I do think it is from communication that happens on a vibratory level with in not just our brains but our body as well. We are given glimpses of the big picture even though we can not visualize or even 'speak' what is gained by the experience, most often you are simply left with a kind of calmness that stems from understanding, a calmness that only understanding can give us.

When you turn on the radio, a song plays. Right away a conclusion is drawn about the song as to whether or not you want to listen to it. To me, the realization comes from either discord or acceptance on a chemical and/or vibrational level first and whether we feel compelled to listen or whether we feel compelled to change the station comes from that.
I must state that some people think perhaps, however we are feeling over all, might dictate our discord or acceptance of a song, my argument is this...To many times can you put on a piece of music and change your whole outlook. This shows that your acceptance overshadows how you feel. Your acceptance has nothing to do with how you feel. Your outlook changes not because you simply feel better as a result of the music, but from a deeper 'sub-conscious' understanding of the big picture given from a large dose of co-cohesiveness/acceptance of your situation stemming from a physical not mental gaining of perspective.

To me, thought without words (or mental images) encompasses 99.9% of everything.

I view the development of our brains to the result of a creative/scientific expression of our consciousness with the material being a mixture of organic lifeforms and particulate space matter. That our brains do not so much enhance our ability to understand as detract from it when viewed as the end all to be all as is so often the case. (Interesting connotations when considered in terms of surpassing the ego).


Fodder, got to love it!
Birds


PS...I am not surprised at all about our growing ability to genetically play. Ultimately it would take a genetic change to grow a brain that does not succumb to the limits invoked by thermal noise. Not that I think it will happen in a petrie dish but I think it is happening physically within ourselves, I think we are headed to an overall evolutionary change that will spur changes in the development of our brains that will deal with this thermal problem and in our daily physical reality it is manifesting in our understanding of quieting through meditation and the growth spurt in genetic understanding.

I love you
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PostSubject: Re: Thought without words   Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:43 pm

Windchimes singforth with the voice of the Great Mother with a timbre that is loved and understood by her childen.
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PostSubject: knowledge - gnowledge   Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:51 am

First, from my observations there are no diamonds in the rough,...that is an ego trick, indoctrinating people that they must learn more,..accumulate knowledge. Reality suggests we are all multifacited diamonds.

Saraha says, “Just because a diamond is in the mud doesn’t mean that it has lost its luster.”

In other words, as ACIM says, seek not love, but seek and find all the barriers you have built against it.

Knowledge or thinking is a product of the mud obscuring the luster that we are,...not the we that we think we are, but the we that is beyond the impermanent.

Thoughtlessness is the most blissful state,...and from my experience, is inherently the most productive. My first period (1974) of thoughtlessness beyond traditional meditation lasted about eight hours,...and then, when I view an object as being outside myself, I had a thought, and that ended my being in the Heart (gnowledge), and brought me back into the Head (knowledge).

Inscribed over the portico of the Temple at Delphi in Greece was written Gnothi Seauton—gnow thyself. To the Greeks, gnowledge or wisdom arose through the thymos, located near the physical heart, and associated with the thymus gland. The psyche, located in the gray-goo in the head, was considered of secondary importance. Some cultures like the Egyptian and Maya of Mesoamerica, thought so lowly of the brain, or sciential mind, that before burials it was sucked out and discarded, whereas the heart was treasured.

Today’s scientially minded may think such a philosophy as primitive, but keep in mind that the Egyptians for example were quite aware of the brain. Evidence clearly shows that the Egyptians had an intimate knowledge of brain functions, for instance that the left cerebral hemisphere controls the right side of the body. As was the case with the tantrika and Vajrayana in Asia, and the Maya of Mesoamerica, Egyptians seemed to have been aware that the brain is the vessel for the lowest consciousness, whereas from the heart arose the highest consciousness. Ancient cultures appear to have discarded the brain because they had a higher awareness of self.

Knowledge proceeds through what Buddha called the five skandhas or Aggregates, which includes sensual perceptions and conditioned experience by way of the psyche or personal consciousness. To know is to comprehend noologically, through intellect-based thought.

Gnowledge or sapience, from sapientia, is to understand through metasensory awareness and unconditioned experience through the thymos or impersonal consciousness. To gnow is to understand by way of gnosis, the gnowledge that Siddhartha Gautama, the “Sage of the Shakyas,” implied when he said, be a Lamp unto Thyself.

Mahamudra is an instruction that facilitates gnowledge, the gnowledge of gnowing thyself. Meditation according to Mahamudra (Vajrayana Buddhism) is simply a stepping stone to Non-meditation,...that is, where we live from the Heart-Mind, not the Head-Mind.

My longest period of thoughtlessness was for 28 days in 1996, and was one of my most productive months.

There are many transformational triggers that can precipitate for us an uncovering of tremendums, which bring pause to ego, beliefs, and attachments, and thus removing the mud for gnowledge to be realized. Through these unmedia-ted experiences, we can be liberated from our predispositions. To paraphrase Tilopa, the Sage of the Short Path, a flash of the sapiential mind's clear light can erase eons of duality's conditioning and spiritual blindness.

Transformational triggers can flow from connected breathing, hypnotherapy, sound and color meditations, Ki practices, etc. One of my favorite triggers is called the supermarket task, an activity of the "Just Because Club" developed by what Claude Needham calls, "a contemporary inner-work group." The task is to enter a supermarket, that is, a place where you commonly purchase groceries, not a department store or one of the new hybrid stores, and remain there for a full hour. Inside the store, which you enter and leave without contacting or handling a door, you touch nothing, neither a cart, nor a basket, nor any other item. While inside, you read nothing, speak to no one, and do not allow anyone to speak to you. If any of the above stipulations are compromised, then immediately pick up something, which does not have to be expensive, purchase it, and leave. Then try the task again at another date. Be sure to plan for spending a few hours in leisurely pursuits following the supermarket task.
http://www.slimeworld.org/xxaxx/jbc_ndx.html
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