Peter Paul Rubens Flemish Baroque Era Painter 1577-1640

Hi folks, just meandering around and I went to the wiki site through the link...

I've never taken part in a discussion about art before. I am so glad you 2 started this thread of thought. I would love to be introduced to artists, so we start with Reuben. On the website is a painting called the 'The Fall of Man', I find it interesting that he depicts the purveyor of our destruction as a child.

His use of color appeals to me, even as a young girl movies and books with images of the same tonesand drama were always my first pic. The imagery is so strong, it seems to give me strength of heart. The men are so strong and the situation always so dire. I grew up without a father and it was always males depicted in this form that attracted me and gave me the imaginary man I needed to feel safe.
I related to the women too, as a young girl it was as if the pillared yet subjugated portrayal of the women spoke to me. I understood it and feared it.

Warmth and hugs
Birds

the absence of our fathers!

the attempt to portray women as their inspiration in their FALL from grace simultaneous to all their seemingly victorious glory.

the brave and utterly disciplined application of ancient wisdom against the "backdrop" of zeitgeist in evolution
(the entire mediterranian era comprising ancient greece and rome as well as a belligerent christendom lost to the ecclesia in its territorial expansion).

a connective spiritual attempt as a reminder of a universal language that would unify and eventually pacify war-torn europe.

but go to belgium and the netherlands today, and see little baroque, but much older and a much more stringent spirit in architectural and environmental developments.

Its interesting to find that religion and cultural structure are no longer holding up the stereo types of the Zeitgeist era ( new word, cool ). As a result politics as well are swinging away from it. Over the vastness of this world there are still nations way behind in transformations of this nature but the swaying tide itself is vast.

IMO one very vast important roll of this role shedding change is how women are evolving because of the influence of being in the workplace and how the men are changing from assuming the household role. Its almost like trying on our alter egos...

Prettybirds wrote:

Its interesting to find that religion and cultural structure are no longer holding up the stereo types of the Zeitgeist era ( new word, cool ). As a result politics as well are swinging away from it. Over the vastness of this world there are still nations way behind in transformations of this nature but the swaying tide itself is vast.

IMO one very vast important roll of this role shedding change is how women are evolving because of the influence of being in the workplace and how the men are changing from assuming the household role. Its almost like trying on our alter egos...

Pretty, i am not quite sure i understand what your second para here says.

let me give you my impressions in brief:

what are our 'alter egos'?
did not feminism fail to make women strong in their own role within nature's divine order, rather than leading them to imitate male roles and the entire nine yards of hierarchical structures, whether justified by religious beliefs or less theistic but utterly utilitarian "necessities"?

much as i admire superwoman perfectly timing and man-aging her life, she claims to do it for her own self and good, but that claim appears very hypocritical. i've tried this approach too, even against better inner knowing: all i could learn from this (the hard way) is, that communications is crucial to understanding and hence to relations.

if we continue to compete against others by subtracting from a common / mutual understanding and appreciation of differences, we become each others' dis-ease, misery, poverty, you name them, but life escapes us while we are making other plans.

i don't want to sound pessimistic anymore, especially when you are so enthusiastic still, which i, nonetheless find most stimulating.

Dearest Lavender, it is amazing how you can display such beauty from such pessimism. Are you truley pessimistic or are you full of artistic melancholy? I don't think you are pessimistic, just passionatly connected. It is ok to question...another beautiful nessecity.

The reference to alter egos perhaps in its simplest of forms. To truly understand what it is like to exist as a man and see the world through testosterone eyes we had to as women walk a mile or so in there shoes. It will only be then that we can truly be a quiding light to a man. A man must also assume the estrogenical view of woman to fully understand and reiterate the support.

Over the centuries we have gone from one extreme to the other many times, perhaps it is now, with the amount of people doing the role changing combined with the world wide knowledge of it happening...never before have we been set up culturally for a woman to fully emerse herself in her masculine side and the same for men. We can do this now with no fear in large numbers and we are sharing the results. I think its safe to say that for every woman getting carried away with her actual comparable ability to manifest in the material world along side of men, well there are also as many if not more women that can see the proper balance. Just as many men too who fit in either catagory.

One alter ego of a woman is her masculinity.
One alter ego for a man is his femminity.

Please excuse my awful spelling

Spellcheck....where are you....you make me feel so smart, you make me look so good...

lavender orchid wrote:

what are our 'alter egos'?
did not feminism fail to make women strong in their own role within nature's divine order, rather than leading them to imitate male roles and the entire nine yards of hierarchical structures, whether justified by religious beliefs or less theistic but utterly utilitarian "necessities"?

much as i admire superwoman perfectly timing and man-aging her life, she claims to do it for her own self and good, but that claim appears very hypocritical. i've tried this approach too, even against better inner knowing: all i could learn from this (the hard way) is, that communications is crucial to understanding and hence to relations.

Delineation of the role of women (or men) in some divine order always seems limiting if not outright dangerous. Yes, women and men are different, but as humans we are largely the same. We cannot be bound by such artificial constraints if we are to be free to reach our full potential, to contribute all we have to offer to our community and our world. I have seen credible discussions of the role of the archetypal feminine and masculine, but their credibility hinges on a recognition that each of us embodies both feminine and masculine archetypes, at least to some degree. Women may "concentrate" on feminine in this lifetime, generally, but should not be constrained by this if their individual inclination is otherwise.

Women should not need to be superwomen to seek fulfillment, any more than men should need to be supermen. For generations if not eons, however, men have been freed to act in the outside world, as well as the internal world of thoughts and ideas, by the presence of women, usually a wife, who will attend to daily practical needs. If women are finally availing themselves of the practical benefits of a partner in this area, I can only say it is about time. What we are exercising here is not so much our alter ego, but a critical and inherent part of ourselves that in many other places and times would have had to lie suppressed and ignored.

It is easy to get swept up in our own evolution as women and forget or just plain not notice that men are also going through this change. Especially as we are finnaly swaying away from a subjucation of women phase.
If we were to look at the personal growth of women on a graph set up to measure in terms of age, what age would you view us at? Are we still infants in our new found freedom or have we already reached the toddler stage. Perhaps we are in the teenage angst years or perhaps the sexually liberating years of womanhood. I don't think as a whole the movement has reached middle age, it does not display enough acceptance yet IMO. For either sex.

Seems to me that the human species on the whole is heading towards the end of the teenage angst and into the sexual liberating years of young adulthood. You have to look far and wide to see the swaying tide. I think the next hundred years will really be world changing. As much as the last hundred and more.

I agree that being restricted in life because of your sex is very limiting and destructive.
I also think that the need I see in some women to subjugate men, to need to seperate from them and almost contain them is just as dangerous. We must be equal at the table, both able to use the best of our natural inclinations to further the species.

Birds

Prettybirds wrote:

I agree that being restricted in life because of your sex is very limiting and destructive.
I also think that the need I see in some women to subjugate men, to need to seperate from them and almost contain them is just as dangerous. We must be equal at the table, both able to use the best of our natural inclinations to further the species.

Agreed. I expect to be treated first and foremost as an individual, with all the talents and shortcomings, strengths and weaknesses I actually possess. My gender, race, culture, religion, social group, etc. are all secondary to that.

Romana wrote:

Prettybirds wrote:

I agree that being restricted in life because of your sex is very limiting and destructive.
I also think that the need I see in some women to subjugate men, to need to seperate from them and almost contain them is just as dangerous. We must be equal at the table, both able to use the best of our natural inclinations to further the species.

Agreed. I expect to be treated first and foremost as an individual, with all the talents and shortcomings, strengths and weaknesses I actually possess. My gender, race, culture, religion, social group, etc. are all secondary to that.

this seems very important: "i expect..." an expectation, imho, is well earned and deserving of RESPECT by others, if there should ever be any significance to interrelatedness.

but alas, this woman cannot forget any time soon that she hardly had a right to expect anything.
such is forgiven, yes, but appears failing to heal anytime soon.

after years of pondering both male and female "alter egoes", i have come to a conclusion that's perhaps very perplexing: woman's alter ego is female too. i seem to have spent some time with the legendary and mythical amazons. lol.
but seriously: it's a question of be-longing, verily reason to be(come) extremely melancholy at times.

btw. Romana, what you term secondary in your life, should in actuality be seen as consequences.

great talking to both of you, good to know you in existence here and now. love.

i would have very much appreciated any of my family and friends to speak their minds on comparing this painting with the archetypal pictures the world's various cultures have been expressing, as well as with the genesis story and newer archaeological research and findings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scZGPZchl3s

First of all thank you for sharing this gorgeous picture. Why is it gorgeous? It does depict a primordial story and archetype of the first man & woman. The man being the expert yet beguiled by the wiles of the woman. Obviously yet interesting generalizations. The hero (Adam) and the temptress (Eve). Ironically Adam had a first wife called Lilith. This is not in the bible, it I believe in the Apocryphia.
I have been looking for an artist that depicts heroines. Female warriors and leaders. Females such as Cleopatra, Elizabeth I & The Great of England, Queen Isabela, Joan of Arc etc. If anyone comes across such an artist please let me know.

Also lavender orchid, it is the quirks of fate that bring people together. I believe I have said this before but nonetheless I thank you again for getting me interested in art. Prior to you, I was not that interested in art. I had no time for it apparently. You provided me & the forum with so many beautiful images that I became impressed. More so I am INFP, this from the Myers Briggs Typology Index. This character type is extremely influenced by the environment in which they live or are surrounded by. You happened to inspire me & I took off running with it, but you were the precursor. Thanks.
LightSun

Adam could also be construed the beguiled or a fool.
Eve (the woman) overly emotional and the downfall of man.

See folks this is why I have such a problem with the Old Testament stories. I mean they can be interesting and entertaining but they as well as many writings have gross generalizations, prejudices, and stereotypes.
So which came first the societal stories and myths or the societies they are supposed to reflect. It is a cycle.

Someone please break the cycle. It starts with me, meaning I can't change society but I can hopefully be a role model for change and positive action.

lightsun:
thank you; too much public laurels tend to make me uncomfi.

it is not the public image that should attract people to each other. nor should personal resonances serve to stimulate competition rather than friendship and teamwork.

interest and credits are more than banking terms.



p.s. .... p.s.?
the eve-lilith "generation" definitely has a death ring to it.

lightsun wrote:

Adam could also be construed the beguiled or a fool.
Eve (the woman) overly emotional and the downfall of man.

See folks this is why I have such a problem with the Old Testament stories. I mean they can be interesting and entertaining but they as well as many writings have gross generalizations, prejudices, and stereotypes.
So which came first the societal stories and myths or the societies they are supposed to reflect. It is a cycle.

Or, Eve learns Wisdom from the Serpent, symbol of the earlier Goddess tradition, and shares this with Adam, encouraging him to eat with her of the Tree of Life, and thus gain knowledge of the divine. This is a paraphrase of a retelling (pre-telling?) by Elaine Pagels. From what I have read, by Pagels and others, a significant purpose of the Adam and Eve creation myth was to vilify the earlier religion by demonizing its symbols and painting its wisdom as temptation. Part and parcel of this is that Woman is evil, and must be subject to Man, and punished through pain in childbirth.

Contrast that with the seven-days-of-creation myth. Still a bit questionable in painting humans as divinely anointed masters of the earth, but if I recall correctly, containing the statement that God created Man in his own image; male and female he created them. To me, this implies that the divine encompasses both masculine and feminine, something Christianity (or at least some Jesus groups) initially recognized, but quickly abandoned save for faint and occasional lip service.

excuse me, kindly.

what wisdom should be learned when already created in perfection?
justification of disposal?

of boredom with stale moments?

of denial and arbitrariness in selecting better and worse (judgment, the tree, remember?)

rumor 2 humor!

\!!

anthonis van dyck: amor & psyche

I saved the art work. Where by chance did you find this beutiful piece of art work? It is quite amazing. I have done 500 years of art research, nonetheless there is always a masterpiece out there overlooked. Thank you kindly lavender orchid. Great thanks. I put it in my collection. I then have a wonderful slide show of inspirational art in which inspires me to even greater lengths of searching, searching always in the lookout for a piece of work that inspires me. LightSun Peaceweaver.