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 The marriage of quantum physics and meta physics...

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Prettybirds

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PostSubject: Re: The marriage of quantum physics and meta physics...   Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:21 am

Dearest Romana, you have made me ponder my reasons for viewing science as such a far reaching social influence and my description of it as the true spiritual path. I'm still mulling it over but just wanted to tell you I appreciate you and will reiterate further soon.

Birds cheers
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PostSubject: Re: The marriage of quantum physics and meta physics...   Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:25 am

IMO love is not a feeling any more than fear. Love is a chemical understanding that brings on many emotions and actions. Not all of them good or healthy at first or even second glance. Surely you have loved someone who you shouldn't have, even at the worst between you, love still existed amongst the hate, disappointment and anger. Fear is also a chemical reaction that brings on many emotions and thoughts.
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PostSubject: Re: The marriage of quantum physics and meta physics...   Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:27 am

Perhaps I am too practical and thus detached...

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PostSubject: Re: The marriage of quantum physics and meta physics...   Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:41 am

Romana wrote:
Prettybirds wrote:
What is scientific proof of love? Proof of love is measured by the feeling you are left with as a result of interaction with another individual.

2 individuals, one from a warm loving household and the other from a cold austere if not violent household. Both people feeling that their mothers loved them albiet for very different reasons. Hook them up to a lie detector and ask both if they feel that their mother loved them. It would read psitive and give you chemical proof that the love existed. It is a chemical truth IMO.
There is no scientific proof of love, nor do we need one. Love is something felt, not proven. It is our feeling that leads to the positive lie detector results, and whatever happens chemically in the brain when we think of that love. It is not love itself, or at least not love alone, that causes these results. Plenty of people honestly believe someone loves them when they in fact do not; or conversely, fail to recognize the love that someone does have for them. The physical data from such subjects would correspond to their perception, not the actual absence or presence of love.

Similarly, social custom and religious principle are not the right tools for determining the desirability of marrying near relations or bearing many children. Analyzing a question or issue using the wrong methods makes about as much sense as cleaning your shoes in the dishwasher.

wow, Romana, razor-sharp distinction, cool op.

i am looking to retrieve an article i just recently came about, likening analysis to the death of the soul and the death of any homely habitat with light filling every nook and cranny there.
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PostSubject: Re: The marriage of quantum physics and meta physics...   Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:34 pm

Prettybirds wrote:
Dearest Romana, you have made me ponder my reasons for viewing science as such a far reaching social influence and my description of it as the true spiritual path. I'm still mulling it over but just wanted to tell you I appreciate you and will reiterate further soon.
Science is a far-reaching social influence, though perhaps not as far-reaching as it should be. I would not call it a spiritual path, though. To me, it is more a helpful companion on one's spiritual path, just as a sense of spirituality is a helpful companion in the pursuit of scientific inquiry. Science helps the believer understand how, and spirituality helps the scientist understand why. Separate questions, intimately intertwined.

And no, I cannot say that I have ever loved anyone I should not have loved. I have had relationships break up, but I would not say it was wrong of me to have had them. I have no regrets. Even in the breakups, there was little hate involved, on either side, I think. It was simply a realization that we were not right for each other, so we went our separate ways. In this, as in may things, I count myself lucky.
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PostSubject: Re: The marriage of quantum physics and meta physics...   Sat Feb 06, 2010 9:53 am

And no, I cannot say that I have ever loved anyone I should not have loved. I have had relationships break up, but I would not say it was wrong of me to have had them. I have no regrets. Even in the breakups, there was little hate involved, on either side, I think. It was simply a realization that we were not right for each other, so we went our separate ways. In this, as in may things, I count myself lucky.

Do you think it possible that the reason why you developed those relationships could of perhaps been ultimately a material manifestation of a karmic lesson that even though perhaps from the beginning you understood on a deep level that you would move on from the relationship, you went ahead with it anyway. That something you had to learn was contained in the close interaction with this other person and that perhaps chemically this registered without mental preparation. Thus giving you the need/ability to love this person regardless of misgivings. Perhaps there were no misgivings, all the better of course.
How true you are when you say you have never loved anyone you shouldn't have. A lot of people though refer to most of their loves as loving when they shouldn't. Such a shame...however, with the amount of mental anguish and physical repercussions I can understand why the greater amount of the human population really does not want to wrap their head around the necessity of the full spectrum of love.
Knowing what I know, I have of course had not much fear in loving and as a result have incurred some life lasting wounds, no kidding eh? Thankful though to my Sag temperament I always rationalize in the end and find out why...why?....why?....why? Its always karma of some sort, mine or theirs.
What I know...that even though I might hurt a bit or a lot physically and even though I carry some mental wounds...ultimately in the big picture, I am not hurting myself by incurring these wounds, whatever the discomfort, it is temporary. I revel in the excitement of the adventure and worry about the consequences later to great extent. I am sure as a soul I come back again and again to experience over and over, my familiarity with being human feels ancient. No fear!

Birds....

Birds

Birds...

I love you
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PostSubject: Re: The marriage of quantum physics and meta physics...   Sat Feb 06, 2010 9:56 am

Do not think of me as careless, it is quite the opposite. I lead a very quiet reclusive life but when I decide to do something it is without fear. Just curiosity.
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PostSubject: Re: The marriage of quantum physics and meta physics...   Sat Feb 06, 2010 9:59 pm

Prettybirds wrote:
Do you think it possible that the reason why you developed those relationships could of perhaps been ultimately a material manifestation of a karmic lesson that even though perhaps from the beginning you understood on a deep level that you would move on from the relationship, you went ahead with it anyway. That something you had to learn was contained in the close interaction with this other person and that perhaps chemically this registered without mental preparation. Thus giving you the need/ability to love this person regardless of misgivings. Perhaps there were no misgivings, all the better of course.

I think you are reading too much into this. I see it in much more general terms. Every day of life and every experience has something to teach us. If we stop learning, we stop growing, we stagnate, we die inside. I took a rather probabilistic view of relationships. Considering that I assumed I would be lucky to find even one person with whom I would willingly share my life, I knew that the probablility of any given relationship developing into a serious commitment would be fairly small. I thus entered relationships with a relatively open mind, willing simply to see where they led, and to enjoy them while they lasted (not that I had many at all).

Early relationships, in high school and college, I entered for the purpose of fun and companionship. We felt more affection than love, but that was fine. Later, more serious adult relationships led to deeper feelings, and considerably more disappointment when they ended. I still considered them worth the effort, though. The last, to my greater surprise, culminated in a marriage that has lasted over 10 years now.

Prettybirds wrote:
How true you are when you say you have never loved anyone you shouldn't have. A lot of people though refer to most of their loves as loving when they shouldn't. Such a shame...however, with the amount of mental anguish and physical repercussions I can understand why the greater amount of the human population really does not want to wrap their head around the necessity of the full spectrum of love.

Do not be misled by my discussion of relationships above. This is an area in which my experience is quite limited, and I am sure I was rather lacking. Perhaps I was too ignorant, or worse, to consider that I should not have felt for this person or that. I certainly cannot even begin "to wrap my head around" even a small slice of the spectrum of love. I am often not even sure what is meant when I or others use the word.
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PostSubject: Re: The marriage of quantum physics and meta physics...   Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:16 pm

I neglected to address this previously:
Prettybirds wrote:
My question would be this. What is the nature of a relationship between a scientist and a God? Does he, like the 'Naked Archeaologist', state that even though the plagues are attributable to science it was likely God who manipulated the earth to make them happen? I find that to be such an interesting statement.
I can only speak for myself in saying I see many kinds of truths, many levels of truth. I am not familiar with the naked archaeologist, but after looking it up online, it seems similar to other programs I have seen investigating the historical accuracy of such legends as Noah's ark. One can find the facts: what clues lie on Mount Ararat; could the technology of the day have supported construction of such a vessel; does geologic evidence support a flood of cataclysmic proportions at the necessary time? To me, the answers to these questions are irrelevant in assessing the truth, or perhaps better, the worth, of the Noah's ark myth. It may have been entirely factual, or embellished from a few facts, or complete fantasy. Sorting this out is the task of archaeologists and historians using scientific methods. Any spiritual implications, however, come instead from what the story is trying to teach us, something that requires no historical accuracy at all. (Consider, for comparison, Aesop's fables.)

Whether the biblical plagues are historical fact or not, there is no shortage of modern-day plagues, famines, and natural disasters. I see them all as a natural consequence of how the world is, permissible if infrequent and apparently random events. God did not manipulate the world to make them happen; God rather designed the world in such a way that they could happen, and do from time to time. God no more intervenes to stop such disasters than to cause them. It is in the human response that the influence of God is most apparent, at least to me.

I see the principles on which the universe operates, the laws of nature, or physics, even, as a manifestation of Divinity, not in the sense that God designed it all then stood back to let it run, but rather that God's continued active existence is what is keeping it all going. Should God cease to exist (I am not sure I can even fathom this), the laws of nature would no longer apply.

Study of the natural world is thus one way to become closer to God. I like to use the following analogy. If we want to learn about Shakespeare, we will read his plays; Beethoven, we will listen to his music; Picasso, we will look at his paintings. If we learn about human creators by studying their creations, so can we also learn about the divine creator.
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PostSubject: Re: The marriage of quantum physics and meta physics...   Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:50 am

Hi Romana,

Sounds to me like you view science as spiritual as I do, just different languages apply between us. God, us, you, me...they all work. I love you

I am still trying to figure out how to express how I see the spirituality in science, especially physics....go girl,(boy?) I am jealous of your education!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. That jealousy will inspire me to pick up my book and continue learning. I find it so interesting to meet you. In my cards for the last year or so the Hermit kept making a marked appearance, I've been looking for a venue to learn from. Looking for a teacher. Even your accomplishment is viewed as a lesson to me. Thank-you for being so academically advanced. I am finally getting to know a scientist. It is something I have always wanted....thank-you for letting me...

I love you I love you I love you I love you
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PostSubject: Re: The marriage of quantum physics and meta physics...   Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:15 pm

Prettybirds wrote:
I am still trying to figure out how to express how I see the spirituality in science, especially physics....go girl,(boy?) I am jealous of your education!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. That jealousy will inspire me to pick up my book and continue learning. I find it so interesting to meet you. In my cards for the last year or so the Hermit kept making a marked appearance, I've been looking for a venue to learn from. Looking for a teacher. Even your accomplishment is viewed as a lesson to me. Thank-you for being so academically advanced. I am finally getting to know a scientist. It is something I have always wanted....thank-you for letting me...
You are quite welcome, but there is no need to thank me. Many things in life are double-edged swords. Do not be under any illusions as to my abilities or qualities.
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PostSubject: Re: The marriage of quantum physics and meta physics...   Thu Feb 11, 2010 5:24 am

Hi Romana, today is my day to stay home and type, happy day today.

I'll be bluntly honest with you and I hope you don't think less of me for it. I don't have any conventional education beyond grade 7 combined with a IQ of 129. All my life I dreamed of being educated conventionally and it was always as a physicist who specializes in kinetic energy. I suppose that explains my interest in super positioning, by theory contained potential is kinetic and super positioning is all possibility contained in an atom, can they be one and the same. Can you describe the process of super positioning in terms of kinetic energy? Or is it already being explained this way and I just don't realize it? Or are they completely different and I just don't get it?

Lots of love and warmth
Birds
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PostSubject: Re: The marriage of quantum physics and meta physics...   Thu Feb 11, 2010 5:44 am

Perhaps the reason I feel so spiritual about science is because most people of the modern world, the movers and the shakers, well, they listen to science. Not religion, politics or even love can effect popular thought like science. While a person might not always agree with a theory, they will believe the proof when science figures it out. From this relationship between science and people will come the ability to believe when science finally figures out if there is a God or not, if that Monk is really accomplishing anything through conceptualization...
It could take forever and never be done, the answering of some of the biggest questions on earth, but if it is accomplished, the only venue to deliver those answers that would be listened too would be science. Not that I think the world as a whole would subscribe to the findings but enough of us would to allow for the all important roll of evolution that would want to follow such realizations. The proof is in the pudding is it not?
I am not scared to rewrite my current understanding as it is....in fact with my deep understanding of meta physics from the double 11 path I walk, in my life the opportunity to work on those questions and marry both meta and physics, well it is first and foremost to me.

Respect and warmth
Birds
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PostSubject: Re: The marriage of quantum physics and meta physics...   Thu Feb 11, 2010 6:03 am

It is never easy for enlightened ones. Without understanding the story, I can see how you have struggled with the sacrifices and criticism, the cost. What ever it was, which ever way the cost materialized, take solace in the fact that few are capable of walking your way. You are indeed special and if you were not capable of carrying the weight you would of dropped it along time ago. Sometimes you have to be like a wrestler, imagine yourself standing in the ring, all pumped up mentally and physically, charged and focused on what you know is coming. Not allowing yourself even a smidgen of doubt about the fact that its going to hurt and the fact that you can take it. What you want? The prize. For a wrestler in the ring it is a belt that signifies the fact that he did indeed take the beating, best it and be the one standing there to grab the glory.
For people such as us...our ring is knowledge, our opponent is criticism, our glory is understanding. If we could put even half of the focus of that wrestler into our stance in front of our own odds...


I love you
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PostSubject: Re: The marriage of quantum physics and meta physics...   Thu Feb 11, 2010 6:20 am

For some reason, feeling the way, I am engrossed with this Naked Archaeologist fellow. For the most part, I find that he is true to the need for proof. I am intrigued by his way of not being scared to rewrite bible stories according to scientific proof. It does not scare me that his reasoning is to find his God because so far he has remained fairly unbiased. Interestingly enough, I think he is a Jew. This just adds to what makes him interesting. His primary focus at one time was all about who is Jesus and he is foremost in the world for gathering facts in a scientific way about him. There was one episode where he was discussing the fact that in one story Jesus was supposed to have gracefully stepped off a second story roof to alight on the ground. He ascribed this to meta properties and went around the world to study the possibility and covered many meditative cultures/religions and physics to do so.

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PostSubject: Re: The marriage of quantum physics and meta physics...   Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:38 am

The Scaffolds of Consciousness...Biomimicry by Janus Benyus

Stuart Hameroff and I are in a stale canteen just off the operating room, waiting for him to be summoned, as he puts it 'to pass gas'. At this moment, he looks more like the sax player on the cover of last months 'Downbeat' than an anesthesiologist. He's tilted chairback against the wall, feet up on the table, his scrub green shower cap pulled low over a bushy ridge of salt and pepper eyebrows. At the back of his cap a ponytail struggles to get lose. He's staring at the green wall and talking a blue streak.
As my tape spools, his thoughts bank like swallows over a wide landscape: quantum physics, philosophy, computer science, mathematics, neurobiology ( another person who needs a dewy decimal system for his personal library). But he keeps circling back to the same subject, one that has tangled many a fine mind over centuries: the brain/mind debate. That is, does the mind float above and separate from the brain or does it sprout from the Grey goo itself? If it sprouts, by what biological mechanism does it emerge? And then, most mysteriously, how do these biological interactions inside the brain converge to afford us a unified sense of self. A single identifiable 'I'.
In a few months, Hameroff will host an international think tank at the University of Arizona in Tuscan on consciousness, a conference that already has several hundred registrants pawing at the chance to re-enact the old debate. Hameroff has stepped into the consciousness fray in a public way lately, appearing in glossy magazine spreads with Roger Penrose, a mathematical prodigy known for his theories about wormholes, black holes and geometric tiling. With his latest book 'Shadows of the Minds', Penrose appears to have headed down a new wormhole, into the quantum world of biology-based consciousness. For a journey like this, Penrose thought it best to have a doctor along.


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PostSubject: Re: The marriage of quantum physics and meta physics...   Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:44 am

" I take away and revive people's consciousness everyday" says Hameroff, " So I've thought of it in a very practical, non-abstract way. A biological way. We know for instance, that certain structures within the brain physically change in the presence of anesthesia. That is, they stop moving when consciousness slips away.
Wouldn't it follow that those same structures, and their movements, are tied to consciousness? Maybe they are the root of consciousness, I say they are."
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PostSubject: Re: The marriage of quantum physics and meta physics...   Thu Feb 11, 2010 10:14 am

The physical structures that Hameroff refers to are protein based polymer tubes called microtubules. and amazingly, though they are thoroughly ubiquitous structures, appearing in every cell of our body, they were incognito till 1970. It seems we been inadvertently dissolving them with a fixative (osmium tetroxide) used to prepare specimens for the electron microscope. (don't you wonder what else we may be dissolving?) Once we realized how to prepare cells without destroying microtubules, we began to see them everywhere we looked, and it dawned on us how important they are.
Cells are not the droopy "bags of watery enzyme" that scientists once imagined. They are given their shape by cytoskeletons- a tinkertoy scaffolding of protein tubes and connectors that organize the interiors of all living cells. The proteins in this cytoskeleton are called microtubules, cylindrical fibers that can be anywhere from tens of nanometers long during early assembly to meters long in the axons of large animals.
Microtubules are one of those examples of nature's geometric mantra repeated over and over. The building blocks of of the microtubule are proteins called tublin. Two varieties of tublin, alpha and beta, self assemble into dimers, which self assemble end to end into long protein chains. These strands always group together in bundles of thirteen, forming a hollow cylinder made of protein. The cylinders strands are twisted clockwise like twine in a rope, so that when the microtubules are viewed crosswise, they look like a child's pinwheel.
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PostSubject: Re: The marriage of quantum physics and meta physics...   Thu Feb 11, 2010 10:33 am

Each cylinder sports protrusions along its length called microtubule associated proteins, or MAPS. Some MAPS are bridges connecting the tubules to one another, forming the 3-d lattice that gives the cell its shape. Other MAPS, such as dynein and kinesin, are sidearm proteins (contractile spurs) that can extend and contract. Moving like the legs of a centipede, they act in a coordinated way to pass cytoplasm (cell fluid) along the tubule bucket-brigade style, or to move organelles from one part to another. The cell's workers, chromosomes, nuclei,mitochondria, neurotransmitter synaptic vesicles, liposomes, phagosomes, granules, ribosomes, and the like - all ride the microtubule conveyor belt, meaning that microtubules are in on just about every important cellular function you can think off.
Including reproduction. Remember those spindles forming and disappearing inside dividing cells in high school biology film strips? Those were microtubules helping to pull apart the doubling sets of chromosomes so that one cell could become two. Microtubules are also at work in cilia, the ubiquitous hair-like filaments that bacteria use to row themselves around your microscope slide. Cilia also line our mucus passages, and with the help of microtubules, we wouldn't be able to sense the world, swallow, grow, or says Hameroff, remember our names.
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PostSubject: Re: The marriage of quantum physics and meta physics...   Thu Feb 11, 2010 10:45 am

Thats because brain cells are also full of these microtubular nets. Here they are not only conveyor belt and scaffolding, but also the builders and regulators of of synaptic connections called dendritic spines. (tThe same spines that Donald O. Hebb said are responsible for opening a dialog between two neurons so that learning can take occur.) Microtubule assemblies are also present along the entire of the spindly axon, and their branches are plugged directly into the neurons all-important membrane and into organelles such as the soccer-ball-shaped clathrins at the end of the axon. These clathrins control the release of neurotransmitter chemicals, which swim across the synapse, delivering the neurons signals. (In this last function, the microtubule has its finger in the important pie of thought and feeling.)
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PostSubject: Re: The marriage of quantum physics and meta physics...   Thu Feb 11, 2010 10:57 am

Talking to Hameroff about cytoskeleton makes you want to run into the streets and hand out pamphlets about this marvelous bio-invention. Here is a structure that should be a household word. It is a network nested within each neuron, which itself is nested within a larger neural net. The fractal beauty of this forest within a forest wasn't lost on Hameroff, and he began to wonder if there wasn't more to it. Perhaps the cytoskeleton net and the neural net are partners in the mind puzzle, working at different scales. Perhaps the tinier cytoskeletal net is the secret basement in the cognitive hierarchy, the root cellar of consciousness.
As Hameroff was finishing medical school in Philadelphia and trying to decide what to specialize in, a professor told him that one of the effects of anesthesia was to cripple the microtubules in neurons. He now says, " That made me think. Is there a mechanism in microtubules that controls self awareness, intuitive thought, emotion? Do microtubules help power consciousness?"
Hameroff specialized in anesthesiology and began to read everything he could about the gas's chilling effect on microtubules.
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PostSubject: Re: The marriage of quantum physics and meta physics...   Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:15 am

Another revelation came years later when a colleague Rich Watt brought him an electron-microscope portrait of a tiny network and said, " What does this look like?". " Cytoskeleton", Hameroff shot back, which made Watt smile. "Look again", he said, " Its a microprocessor, a computer chip.".
The eerie resemblance had a profound impact on Hameroff, " The structure of the cytoskeleton is not coincidental, I decided. And the fact that consciousness fades when the microtubule quiets is not coincidental. The cytoskeleton network is as parallel and as inter-connected as the neural net, but a thousand times smaller. It contains millions to billions of cytoskeletal subunits per nerve cell!!! The proto-plasm traffic cop - its a full fledged signaling network - a processor for coding, storing, and recalling our flickering thoughts. In short, it's biology's computer.
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PostSubject: Re: The marriage of quantum physics and meta physics...   Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:35 am

Quantum leaps....

For ten years now, when he hasn't been escorting people in and out of consciousness, Hameroff has been modeling tubulin arrays on his computer searching for some sort of code and signaling mechanism. " Do you have a minute?", he crooks a finger and then he is careening down the hallway like a New Yorker on his lunch hour, to the media instruction lab where he's asked a biological illustrator to create and animated cartoon of flexing microtubules for the up-coming consciousness conference.
As it plays, Hameroff narrates, excited to see the world that has lived for so long in his imagination perform in living color. " Each Microtubule is a hollow cylindrical tube with an outside diameter of about twenty-five nanometers and an inside diameter of about fourteen nanometers. Each tublin dimer is about eight nanometers by four nanometers and consists of two parts, alpha-tublin and beta-tublin, each made up of about four hundred and fifty amino acids.
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PostSubject: Re: The marriage of quantum physics and meta physics...   Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:49 am

In the cartoon a dimer is pulled out and magnified. It looks like a C character in the bold font. At the elbow of the C, the junction of the alpha-tublin and beta-tublin, there is a little hydrophobic (water fearing)pocket. In this pocket, an electron moves up and down in metronome ticktock fashion called dipole oscillation. As it oscillates, it changes the shape of the protein, crimping the C then stretching it.

( I, Birds, feel the need to stress the word electron and encourage you to consider super positioning in terms of the communication between electrons, at this point.)
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PostSubject: Re: The marriage of quantum physics and meta physics...   Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:04 pm

As we watch, cartoon beads of anesthesia gas start infiltrating from screen left. " Count backward from one hundred" mumbles Hameroff. The minute the gas beads reach the dancing dimer, the C shape, the electron in the pocket freezes and the dancing stops. " Goodbye consciousness he announces."
Based on his own observations, Hameroff now believes that the electron freeze is caused by anesthetic molecules jamming into the hydrophobic space at the elbow of the C and binding there. When the electron stops oscillating, we lose consciousness.
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