Discussion/exercise (Im horrible at coming up with titles!)

I figure while we're all here, we might as well get a discussion going.

If one thing could save the world, what do you think it would be?

Now, I realize this isnt entirely realistic and when something as significant as the earth is in question an answer of equal or greater significance is required, but lets keep this simple, yeah? One world, one thing, what would it be? Personally, I'm torn between choosing love or knowledge. Im tempted to say that a lot of worldly issues are either due to ignorance or indifference (not only limited to, of course). I also believe that at some point, they become interchangable. I'm feelin a bit worn out from the weekend so excuse my inability to be literate at the moment, haha. The way this all works out in my head is that knowledge could perhaps be a gateway to love. The way I reason it is that knowledge breeds understanding, and understanding can take the form of patience and empathy, so indirectly the result is caring.. a manifestation of love.
I hope that made sense.

Lets hear your ideas

Love. I think that pure non-possessive love is the answer.

Catch22 is that our delusions and non-understandings often get in the way.

Buddhism basically calls the culprit as "ignorance" or lack of understanding.

So I think we really need the twin horses of Love and Wisdom to be effective.

das.energi wrote:

I figure while we're all here, we might as well get a discussion going.

If one thing could save the world, what do you think it would be?

Now, I realize this isnt entirely realistic and when something as significant as the earth is in question an answer of equal or greater significance is required, but lets keep this simple, yeah?

Lets hear your ideas

My view: *stopping* will save the world. What I mean is our thought cycles trace over things and even as our intellect explores more complex thing or even more evolved things we are still in the thought cycle and are creating an interpretation of that. We then perceive through that as a filer and we declare our description of the world. This description can be *knowledge* yes. But it is this knowledge that creates the world to be in state where it needs saving. I am not saying *no knowledge* is the answer, but more actively pressing the *pause* button on our personal play. Each individual's personal play goes on and we may even get inspired by our account of it. But my view is that when we stop that continual description and perceiving motion we can then finally know absolute stillness. Once witnessed in ourself, not through someone else's description of what that is like, we then become the witness. Our perception can then start from a 0,0 point of view rather than basing our entire belief system on what we have inherited from our Culture.

So it is of no value me being able to *stop* my perception and describe it to you. It is of value for you to stop your perception and then be able to *know* what I mean.

As far as stopping the world/ saving the world, we can only truly affect the *us* part and cant feel responsible for the whole world and not take action to affect that *us*

This may sound more complicated than it is but that would be down to my personal way of describing. As a reader you are invited to look into those descriptions. BUt from that you will interpret it to your own experience. But please do respond back >>> I enjoy rolling the ball of perception between points (people)

Nice theme thanks

Fluid Warrior wrote:

My view: *stopping* will save the world. What I mean is our thought cycles trace over things and even as our intellect explores more complex thing or even more evolved things we are still in the thought cycle and are creating an interpretation of that. We then perceive through that as a filer and we declare our description of the world. This description can be *knowledge* yes. But it is this knowledge that creates the world to be in state where it needs saving. I am not saying *no knowledge* is the answer, but more actively pressing the *pause* button on our personal play. Each individual's personal play goes on and we may even get inspired by our account of it. But my view is that when we stop that continual description and perceiving motion we can then finally know absolute stillness. Once witnessed in ourself, not through someone else's description of what that is like, we then become the witness. Our perception can then start from a 0,0 point of view rather than basing our entire belief system on what we have inherited from our Culture.

So it is of no value me being able to *stop* my perception and describe it to you. It is of value for you to stop your perception and then be able to *know* what I mean.

As far as stopping the world/ saving the world, we can only truly affect the *us* part and cant feel responsible for the whole world and not take action to affect that *us*

This may sound more complicated than it is but that would be down to my personal way of describing. As a reader you are invited to look into those descriptions. BUt from that you will interpret it to your own experience. But please do respond back >>> I enjoy rolling the ball of perception between points (people)

Nice theme thanks

I enjoyed reading your response quite a bit, very interesting idea

I could be grasping the concept wrong but the impression I was left with is that the solution is to abandon rationale and supplement thought processes with instinct. Or did I completely misunderstand?

If that is the basis of your idea, then I cant help but to think that to cut down on our perceptions would be to stray from our fundamental condition. Humans by nature are thinking, rationalizing, and judgmental beings. Is there a way to get around that without losing ourselves, without defying (in essence) our universal laws? Its is almost as if asking a cat, dog, or bird to think and perceive in the way we do, it is not within their natural ability.
Let me know if I've got the right idea here.

Quote :

Love. I think that pure non-possessive love is the answer.

Catch22 is that our delusions and non-understandings often get in the way.

Buddhism basically calls the culprit as "ignorance" or lack of understanding.

So I think we really need the twin horses of Love and Wisdom to be effective.

Unconditional love, yeah?
I think the Beatles said it best: All you need is love, Love, Love is all you need

I think love is the perfect medium for someone to reach their full potential.

If I can elaborate slightly on what I meant...

*Stopping* is all very well. But what we need to recognise is what we stop. Our perception interprets everything and we project. In fact everything that *we* are is a projected-self in a way.

In the theme of saving the world, it is our projections that make the problems that need saving. Noticing 2 factors of this may help.

-Self Rightiousness
-Consumption

One thing is that we beleive in our *opinion* and defend it to our last breath. We think we are right. For 100's of years the state of the world had worsened because of different groupings of humans declaring their way as the right way.
The next thing is that we endlessly consume and repoduce. This is a cycle movement. What we could do instead is re-direct our energy into evolution, which ascends like the sap of a tree.

We need to *stop* in order to completely quiet the projected-self. From here we notice we are not really any of this, and that most of it is just adopted anyway from many sources. We can catch glimpses of another self, a luminous-self and realise that we can reproject almost anything about us. Not just that but we descover it is very much all a play.

das.energi wrote:

I enjoyed reading your response quite a bit, very interesting idea

I could be grasping the concept wrong but the impression I was left with is that the solution is to abandon rationale and supplement thought processes with instinct. Or did I completely misunderstand?

Almost. I don't feel that abandoning thought or rationale to be governed by instinct is a solution. To me the place where *stopping* takes you to is not any of these. But may I add that when coming back into doing, and yes acion is needed, one uses thought, rationale, intuition, in fact one uses all the perception. One uses the body and witnessed what it perceives and witnesses the mind and our adopted morals. One uses the emotional body, the senses and formulates again descriptions that form our personal tree of knowledge. All the material world and tools are there to be used.

Giving up on *reason* is not the way...

das.energi wrote:

If that is the basis of your idea, then I cant help but to think that to cut down on our perceptions would be to stray from our fundamental condition. Humans by nature are thinking, rationalizing, and judgmental beings.

I am not suggesting cutting anything down - my suggestion is *pressing pause*
When we unpress that pause button we are as anyone else.

Another image to play with is that when we perceive and explore the delicious fruit of being that we are like a mouse runing around inside its ball. Always thinking and unravelling some thought cycles. That is the running. Pressing pause is a little like stopping running. Actually it is more, it is getting out of the ball.

das.energi wrote:

I figure while we're all here, we might as well get a discussion going.

Personally, I'm torn between choosing love or knowledge. Im tempted to say that a lot of worldly issues are either due to ignorance or indifference (not only limited to, of course). I also believe that at some point, they become interchangable. I'm feelin a bit worn out from the weekend so excuse my inability to be literate at the moment, haha. The way this all works out in my head is that knowledge could perhaps be a gateway to love. The way I reason it is that knowledge breeds understanding, and understanding can take the form of patience and empathy, so indirectly the result is caring.. a manifestation of love.
I hope that made sense.

Using the knowledge system of the chakras and subtle system as a basis I can say that you are vibrating the truth in what you say.



As per the diagram here we have these core 7 centres in our energy. These go up the main trunk of our being as humans. *knowledge* fountains from the second chakra up from the root. *Love* fountains from the fourth chakra up from the root. You are vibrating from these 2 points. But all the time our perception interprets these vibrations. Even these vibrations from others. There is a vibrational awareness and exchange that takes place on a subtle level.

Even in you expressing these points here it may not really be to get an *apparent answer* but could be simply that you want to express outwardly and connect these 2 vibrations. And here, a small collective gathering can greet your vibrations and relate to you in a response. I think it is the response you like. We like to think we grow through these experiences and interactions, but growth or not a lot f it is that we want to feel these vibrations, feel that someone else is receiving and acknowledging them. Sometimes we want people to like them and sometimes tell us we are right. This is all the human experience and I guess we are all open enough to co-exist and agree to exchange

This is an interesting conversation. One of the best I think I have seen on the net. I think of stopping as like moments of Zen meditation - and that we oscillate between these moments and our daily activites and learnings and growth. It's like sleep is necessary and dreams are necessary and these stopping times are as well. They all work together as a union, but the more enlightened we become the more aware of all this we become and in some sense we are always in this "zone of the stopped" - at that point we are even beyond Buddha - we are merely "suchness" itself. We don't own anything and we aren't owned by anything. We are freed from bondage to notions and concepts, but still able to use them to help others achieve Nirvanic flight as well. I think the following article says it similarily.

http://www.dailyzen.com/zen/zen_reading0906.asp

There are many words that spring to mind.
They are basically divided into two camps.
(1)wisdom, logic, reason, knowledge, mind, insight
(2)love, mercy, kindness, compassion, heart
If I have to choose one then that is "WISDOM"
My second choice is "LOVE"
As Mayflow says, they go hand in hand.
I never thought about it till now, but a thought springs to mind.
I am not saying it is accurate.
But with the mind, hopefully comes true wisdom & insight.
Within the heart where true compassion lays is almighty love.
Together, mind and heart, produce the soul.
A beautiful soul connected to the universe by it's love and wisdom.
Without love and wisdom, one cannot transcend.
This life here is to teach us lessons in both love and true wisdom gained through insight
and being open to the universe and it's lessons as they appear.
We have to want to walk the path.
We have to want to be open & humble, willing to change and outgrow notions we might have.
We have to accept suffering and rise above it thus reaching true wisdom and universal love.
An enlightened one!

Interdependence.

I believe it is important to recognize the primary importance of
interdependence in our species (I take it the 'world' by implication, Das, is
human?) Perhaps Fluids note on self-righteousness does encompass this idea...as
does May's idea of love, and of Light on the careful absorption of wisdom.

But that's as it should be.