What is a slave and what is a prisoner?

Rather insightful Posts : 26 Join date : 2009-07-12

What is a slave and what is a prisoner? (rough notes)

I was born into slavery. And fought my way up to prisoner!

The slave obeys. The slave subjugates his will to that of an other or others. The slave is never under duress -- that is the prisoner. The prisoner makes no pretension of submission. From the outside the two may be indistinguishable -- but they are totally different -- opposites. The slave is a slave in mind, the prisoner is always really free.

There is no shame in being a prisoner. Anyone can be overpowered, outwitted, outnumbered.

These are absolute considerations: one-thousand years is not a mitigation: she is biding her time, in stealth... waiting to make a break for it. No outward symbol can ever demonstrate slavery because slavery is not an incongruity of will and situatedness(?). Shackles, bars, whips and chains... these are the common condition of slave and prisoner.

Motive: The slave seeks to preserve his life, the prisoner seeks to preserve her will.

Will is not a component, sub-machine, of life; it is not. Will proceeds life, and life depends on will. We will ourselves to die and we will our life. If you die in your dream, you die -- this folk wisdom has no experiential proof, yet it creeps in by necessary logic. The last free act of a a prisoner might be to will the eradication of her life. The slave never does this, he is a slave to life. No one can have everything she wants all the time -- if ever.

A prisoner's will is obstructed, but it is not subjected. (This is a fault that society values life, and not liberty; but a society must -- and an individual must never -- or he becomes a slave.)

The radical freedom of God's will is identical to his animals. No animal has a life; no imaginary cares; if an animal can perceive her escape -- she takes it!

Subject: Re: What is a slave and what is a prisoner? Sat Aug 15, 2009 3:01 pm

The best way to keep a slave is to convince him/she that they are not slaves at all, but free. It has worked well through out the ages.

Starfleet Commander Posts : 341 Join date : 2009-05-20

Vana. You are free to do or say as you wish here, and you will not ever get banned. Other than that
I don't know what other freedoms I can offer you. Do you?

Rather insightful Posts : 26 Join date : 2009-07-12

dearlg1 wrote:: The best way to keep a slave is to convince him/she that they are not slaves at all, but free. It has worked well through out the ages.

Yes.

But I think even better, and it has been done for such a long time, is for the slaves to believe that they are naturally slaves, born slaves, and they can never be anything but slaves. And once you start to watch how slaves act and how the free act, you can see how Aristotle and other wise thinkers actually thought that the slaves were a fundamentally different breed than the free.

Starfleet Commander Posts : 341 Join date : 2009-05-20

Vana wrote:

dearlg1 wrote:: The best way to keep a slave is to convince him/she that they are not slaves at all, but free. It has worked well through out the ages.

Yes.

But I think even better, and it has been done for such a long time, is for the slaves to believe that they are naturally slaves, born slaves, and they can never be anything but slaves. And once you start to watch how slaves act and how the free act, you can see how Aristotle and other wise thinkers actually thought that the slaves were a fundamentally different breed than the free.

Vana, as I have said you are free to do or say whatever you want here, but it's also true that neither Orchid nor I can do that on you own forum. Now maybe re-think who is free and who is slave?

Rather insightful Posts : 26 Join date : 2009-07-12

Mayflow wrote:: Vana, as I have said you are free

I know. You don't need to tell me. Though a reminder is helpful, for sure.

Quote :: ...to do or say whatever you want here, but it's also true that neither Orchid nor I can do that on you own forum. Now maybe re-think who is free and who is slave?

You're still complaining about that? Forget it. (Slaves never forget.)

Admin Posts : 154 Join date : 2009-05-19

Vana wrote:

Mayflow wrote:: Vana, as I have said you are free

I know. You don't need to tell me. Though a reminder is helpful, for sure.

Quote :: ...to do or say whatever you want here, but it's also true that neither Orchid nor I can do that on you own forum. Now maybe re-think who is free and who is slave?

You're still complaining about that? Forget it. (Slaves never forget.)

If you want me not to remember that you banned both myself an Lavender Orchid, all you would have to do is rescind the bans. An apology would also be nice, but you don't have to unless you want to. How BIG is your heart?

Rather insightful Posts : 26 Join date : 2009-07-12

Slaves always understand freedom as rudeness.

Sorry for being free?

I saw the greatest film about this topic, it's called Along Came a Spider. Alex Cross is my new hero. Perhaps I am still only Soneji? Working on that.

Peace.

Subject: Re: What is a slave and what is a prisoner? Sat Aug 15, 2009 7:03 pm

Vana wrote:

dearlg1 wrote:: The best way to keep a slave is to convince him/she that they are not slaves at all, but free. It has worked well through out the ages.

Yes.

But I think even better, and it has been done for such a long time, is for the slaves to believe that they are naturally slaves, born slaves, and they can never be anything but slaves. And once you start to watch how slaves act and how the free act, you can see how Aristotle and other wise thinkers actually thought that the slaves were a fundamentally different breed than the free.

I understand the concept you posted about Aristotle. They could take a slave and dress them up and they would still recognize that these dressed up slaves were slaves. Again,it it still that way.

Starfleet Commander Posts : 341 Join date : 2009-05-20

Vana wrote:: Slaves always understand freedom as rudeness.

Sorry for being free?

I saw the greatest film about this topic, it's called Along Came a Spider. Alex Cross is my new hero. Perhaps I am still only Soneji? Working on that.

Peace.

Of course, I want you to be free. This is a ban free facility.

Rather insightful Posts : 26 Join date : 2009-07-12

You guys are okay. So many lulz at being free in a world of slaves. Being alive means not being dead. Having love. I'll unban you shortly. I've only gotten free recently, and only just, so sorry if I abuse my freedom a bit.

Starfleet Commander Posts : 341 Join date : 2009-05-20

Vana wrote:: You guys are okay. So many lulz at being free in a world of slaves. Being alive means not being dead. Having love. I'll unban you shortly. I've only gotten free recently, and only just, so sorry if I abuse my freedom a bit.

I have a tale (or is it a tail?) that I would like to tell.

It occurred many eons ago in a battle of the birds and yet even today, not one can tell who won. Many say the birds were all united in Nirvana, even the ones who only watched.

It all started one day when all the birds were gossiping and saying things that really not too relevant in nature to lady sky and Tall trees and Luminescent clouds and all those beings.

Then the birds, because they could fly wondered on which are the birds that can fly the highest? decided to make a contest.

Even amongst all the birds of the Earth, no one doubted that the mighty Eagle was by far the more capable.

The chickens delighted, the owls hooted, and everyone knew the Eagle would fly the highest. Hummingbird was watching and also delighted and perched herself upon the Eagle's wings to enjoy the flight. Everyone but the Hummingbird though, knows that she can't fly.

Even though every bird on Earth now knows otherwise. Some say she has joined the ranks of the Pegasaurus and the Unicorn, but she still flies.

Posts : 43 Join date : 2009-08-25 Age : 31 Location : UK

I always thought that a slave existed without reason, and a prisoner existed with the volition beïng beaten out of him.

Posts : 15 Join date : 2011-02-01

Slaves perform , prisoners wait.
both are mindsets that are on equal levels.

Starfleet Commander Posts : 341 Join date : 2009-05-20

Google the Buddha's story of the raft. He likens his teachings to a raft that is meant to take one from slavery to freedom, but not as something to hold on to once freedom's shore has been reached. Free beings don't want slaves. They want other free beings to play with on Eternity's shores.

Posts : 15 Join date : 2011-02-01

Ideally that is so but we are not free creatures

Posts : 28 Join date : 2011-01-28

Who binds you, and how are you bound, it has been said that "The weak inslave themselves". Is it an excuse, or a valid assessment.

Posts : 15 Join date : 2011-02-01

Obligations bind us and enslave us. Would you give up your familial obligations to be free?We are bound to our families our societies our physical needs these things keep us from being free. We are all slaves once we become pysical creatures and social creatures.

I would say the weak are those that run from such enslavement.
I would say the strong fight any other type of enslavement.

Posts : 28 Join date : 2011-01-28

When my 1 year old grandaughter reaches up for me to pick her up, am I free to do so, or is it an obligation that enslaves me?

Starfleet Commander Posts : 341 Join date : 2009-05-20

thedoc wrote:: When my 1 year old grandaughter reaches up for me to pick her up, am I free to do so, or is it an obligation that enslaves me?

Depends on your attitude, doesn't it? This is turning into a thought provoking subject! Very Happy

Posts : 28 Join date : 2011-01-28

Slavery is a state of mind? In some parts of the ancient world, Greece in particular, slaves would be able to move about to preform their duties. In other parts of the world, at other times, a slave would be on the run if given the oportunity. Is it a measure of the quality of the society if there was concern for 'runaway slaves or not'? Were chains and whips always needed to enforce slavery? Did you know that Aesop of 'Aesop's Fables' was a slave?

Perhaps his body was enslaved but his mind was free, whereas with many of us our bodies are free but our minds are enslaved.

Posts : 15 Join date : 2011-02-01

If one is born into slavery chances of running will be slim. You are raised within that culture. Its not really any different then those who have money and those who do not. One is the boss because they pay the wages and those that get paid do what they are told. We are born into this. we don't think about it as slavery but it is.

If you are not born into slavery chances are you will run. In Greece many slaves were born into it and were considered low level second class family members.
Here in the US , most slaves did not run and they were not born into it.. Why? They outnumbered their masters and out numbered any bullets. So why the decision to submit to deplorable treatment? If you believe something hard enough it will be true to you. Break the spirit of a creature and they become a slave.

To pick up your grandaughter is a cross between obligation and wanting to. Obligation does not mean it has to be bad. Being enslaved by obligations is not bad it actually gives us paths at times. it gives us direction. We create a selfimposed slavery upon ourselves. You got up every day to go to work to feed your family. Now you are retired. Does the obligation to care for your family go away or is it still there, self imposed?

I feed all my animals every day it takes an hour at least then another hour or two to clean up after them. I love them all dearly but, I hate the chore of poop picker upper. It is a part of my selfimposed slavery to their routines and to ensure they thrive. I do get a lot of joy and love from them. So the hateing of one part means very little over all to my self imposed slavery. I can't take vacations, i can't neglect them, I am stuck. which is OK.

Posts : 28 Join date : 2011-01-28

kriswest wrote:: To pick up your grandaughter is a cross between obligation and wanting to. Obligation does not mean it has to be bad. Being enslaved by obligations is not bad it actually gives us paths at times. it gives us direction. We create a selfimposed slavery upon ourselves. You got up every day to go to work to feed your family. Now you are retired. Does the obligation to care for your family go away or is it still there, self imposed?

, I am stuck. which is OK.

We agree, I did not mean to give the impression that I thought that obligations were all bad, indeed some are a great pleasure to perform. At times during the day I am obliged to put my grandaughter down for a nap, I can think of no greater pleasure than to hold and rock her, while she slowly quiets down, the breathing gets very steady, and some times I really don't want to put her in her bed, I would rather just hold her. But I know she will get a better nap if she is in her bed, undisturbed. I have a son who is a bit older than my daughters so when my 2nd wife was considering children I knew full well what was involved in rearing children. And now I am reliving that experience with 3 of my grandchildren. I understand being 'stuck', and I understand that it is OK.

Posts : 15 Join date : 2011-02-01

That leaves me without anything to reply back with,,, thanks Doc, just take the wind out from under the wings Laughing

Posts : 28 Join date : 2011-01-28

In the OP it was stated that from the outside a Slave and a Prisoner are indistinguishable, but are they really, perhaps the only way to know for sure is to have inside information about the conditions of each?