What is a slave and what is a prisoner?

Posts : 15 Join date : 2011-02-01

It could be, what if nature creates slave/prisoner mentality? Then would that slave or prisoner really be a slave or prisoner? No. we all follow, but what if nature tweaks that following a bit tighter in some?

Starfleet Commander Posts : 341 Join date : 2009-05-20

kriswest wrote:: It could be, what if nature creates slave/prisoner mentality? Then would that slave or prisoner really be a slave or prisoner? No. we all follow, but what if nature tweaks that following a bit tighter in some?

This is a very good point, Kris. Like Brian on that other forum. Needing a belief and relying on a belief, but not yet capable of realizing it is just a belief system. I think some one like the Dalai Lama is going to be free whether in a prison or on a deathbed. Me too! Very Happy

The task is how to offer freedom to the enslaved.

Posts : 15 Join date : 2011-02-01

I would say first you must determine if they feel enslaved. The women of Muslim religion do not feel like chattel for the most part. Otherwise they would have rebelled long ago. They feel free, they prefer that they have no say, no vote , must obey their men etc. They do not have to make decisions like you or I do. So are they free or enslaved? Are we free or enslaved ?

There is always a price for freedom.

Posts : 28 Join date : 2011-01-28

People are choosing thru-out their lives, they choose to be enslaved or priosoners on some way. There are many ways to bind yourself, and most do so and then do not realize that they are slaves. People will believe that they have chosen freely when the choice was made for them. How can you offer freedom to someone who does not know that they are enslaved, Its like offering to forgive someone who does not admit to doing any thing wrong. Offering freedom would be offensive to someone who does not believe it, it may be that we are all slaves if only to the illusion of freedom.

Posts : 15 Join date : 2011-02-01

And yet people are forced everyday to become "free" by others that make the decision that they are enslaved. We are a wierd crittur we humans.

Posts : 28 Join date : 2011-01-28

kriswest wrote:: We are a wierd crittur we humans.

I must agree with you on this. 'Vive La Wierdness!'

Starfleet Commander Posts : 341 Join date : 2009-05-20

thedoc wrote:

kriswest wrote:: We are a wierd crittur we humans.

I must agree with you on this. 'Vive La Wierdness!'

The weird can get weirder and if you get weird enough, you will change the entire world. How would you guys change the world if you know you really can? The world is really quite a malleable palace.

Posts : 15 Join date : 2011-02-01

Nope , no and hell no, I do not want to be party to messing with evolution. we are evolving, and as with any birth its a messy painful business. To have an ego that believes my way is best is not within me,, I done birthed one baby and it hurt like hell... I can only imagine the pain of birthing a world. Nope,,,, There just is not enough beer. I will work on my little corner of humanity thanks. I am not a coward, just sensible. Evolution=birth remember that anytime you think you want to give birth to a change of evolving, you are going to have to face pain like you never have before. Is it worth your life?

Starfleet Commander Posts : 341 Join date : 2009-05-20

kriswest wrote:: Nope , no and hell no, I do not want to be party to messing with evolution. we are evolving, and as with any birth its a messy painful business. To have an ego that believes my way is best is not within me,, I done birthed one baby and it hurt like hell... I can only imagine the pain of birthing a world. Nope,,,, There just is not enough beer. I will work on my little corner of humanity thanks. I am not a coward, just sensible. Evolution=birth remember that anytime you think you want to give birth to a change of evolving, you are going to have to face pain like you never have before. Is it worth your life?

ok I'll count you in. What did Rumi say?

"Some Kiss We Want

There is some kiss we want with
our whole lives, the touch of

spirit on the body. Seawater
begs the pearl to break its shell.

And the lily, how passionately
it needs some wild darling! At

night, I open the window and ask
the moon to come and press its

face against mine. Breathe into
me. Close the language- door and

open the love window. The moon
won't use the door, only the window."

Do you like the way Rumi thought, Kris?
Passionate Love Power will lead the way.

Posts : 15 Join date : 2011-02-01

Its a wonderful sentiment and has some truth. Now how do you teach people to love what they hate and fear? From birth is the only way. You cannot teach love so easily to an adult if at all my friend and its the adults that must be reached.

Posts : 28 Join date : 2011-01-28

RUBAIYAT OF OMAR KHAYYAM
By Omar Khayyam
Rendered into English Verse by Edward Fitzgerald

LIX.
Listen again. One Evening at the Close
Of Ramazan, ere the better Moon arose,
In that old Potter's Shop I stood alone
With the clay Population round in Rows.

LX.
And strange to tell, among that Earthen Lot
Some could articulate, while others not:
And suddenly one more impatient cried—
"Who is the Potter, pray, and who the Pot?"

LXI.
Then said another—"Surely not in vain
My substance from the common Earth was ta'en,
That He who subtly wrought me into Shape
Should stamp me back to common Earth again."

LXII.
Another said—"Why, ne'er a peevish Boy
Would break the Bowl from which he drank in Joy;
Shall He that made the Vessel in pure Love
And Fansy, in an after Rage destroy!"

LXIII.
None answer'd this; but after Silence spake
A Vessel of a more ungainly Make:
"They sneer at me for leaning all awry;
What? did the Hand then of the Potter shake?"

LXIV.
Said one—"Folks of a surly Tapster tell,
And daub his Visage with the Smoke of Hell;
They talk of some strict Testing of us—Pish!
He's a Good Fellow, and 'twill all be well."

LXV.
Then said another with a long-drawn Sigh,
"My Clay with long oblivion is gone dry:
But, fill me with the old familiar Juice,
Methinks I might recover by-and-bye!"

LXVI.
So, while the Vessels one by one were speaking,
One spied the little Crescent all were seeking:
And then they jogg'd each other, "Brother! Brother!
Hark to the Porter's Shoulder-knot a-creaking!"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posts : 15 Join date : 2011-02-01

Tried and tried, I simply cannot figure out a reply to that.

Posts : 28 Join date : 2011-01-28

kriswest wrote:: Tried and tried, I simply cannot figure out a reply to that.

If you haven't gotten this symbolism yet, read the potter as God and the pots as people. People are literally made from the dust of the Earth, clay in this imagery, and if you think about it 'you are what you eat' and everything you eat comes directly or indirectly from the ground. Please excuse me if I'm stating something you already saw but this helped me understand this section.

Posts : 15 Join date : 2011-02-01

I got the symbolism , pot potter god human dust to dust.

I just have no way of replying to it other than The dust that makes us is ever changing, what dust was first now has the particles of ages in it. What was is now and forever a part of what is. We are products of limits. The first creates and is part of the last. The potter cannot be seperated from the pots for the pots are the potter. The potter is the pots. When the potter molded the clay part of the clay stayed with the potter and is now part of the potter. The reverse is true too . Niether can ever be seperated or seperate. Both potter and pots have limits and are enslaved to physical.

Starfleet Commander Posts : 341 Join date : 2009-05-20

kriswest wrote:: I got the symbolism , pot potter god human dust to dust.

I just have no way of replying to it other than The dust that makes us is ever changing, what dust was first now has the particles of ages in it. What was is now and forever a part of what is. We are products of limits. The first creates and is part of the last. The potter cannot be seperated from the pots for the pots are the potter. The potter is the pots. When the potter molded the clay part of the clay stayed with the potter and is now part of the potter. The reverse is true too . Niether can ever be seperated or seperate. Both potter and pots have limits and are enslaved to physical.

While I basically understand, I think there is a part of us that is that beyond this and is maybe mind only or something like that. There is a zen koan somewhere asking if Karma (cause which creates effect) is real. The answer it is that it is real in relativity, which can also be called the creativity field. This field contains ideas and concepts and dualities, but as you mentioned, Kris, it is still a non-separational field, as separation is illusionary.

Posts : 15 Join date : 2011-02-01

Illusions have a way of being real. I don't mean you when I say this: But, sometimes people that follow such ideas seem to be more escapists than anything. denying life denying reality etc.. Escaping their lives on a vague promise of some better reality. No insult to anyone, we all do our own escaping.

Posts : 858 Join date : 2010-07-16

kriswest wrote:: Illusions have a way of being real. I don't mean you when I say this: But, sometimes people that follow such ideas seem to be more escapists than anything. denying life denying reality etc.. Escaping their lives on a vague promise of some better reality. No insult to anyone, we all do our own escaping.

nature provides me with anger clothing for the journey.
others may not like me, therefore.
i, in turn, cannot like being dis-liked.

pong! fallen into a trap? running into open knives?

getting sick is a warning sign working inside out. What is a slave and what is a prisoner? - Page 2 Th_flo10

What is a slave and what is a prisoner? - Page 2 Th_flo10