The marriage of quantum physics and meta physics...

i love that sherrington nerve-serve quote!

Hi Romana and Lavender,
Spent some time today looking into ATP and here is a beautiful article that totally explains Hameroff's interest in it...

http://www.trueorigin.org/atp.asp

'The Perfect Energy Currency'. I have a much better understanding now, it is more like pulling the tail of the donkey then splitting the atom....

Warmth and hugs to both of you

Even better.... http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/presentations/whatisconsciousness.html#problem

Prettybirds wrote:

Even better.... http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/presentations/whatisconsciousness.html#problem

http://www.mi2g.com/cgi/mi2g/frameset.php?pageid=http%3A//www.mi2g.com/cgi/mi2g/press/140207.php

For years this stuff has fascinated me, just put me in awe....
It is such a fluid and intricate puzzle this the marriage of science and consciousness. Science such a language in nature hard to learn and consciousness ruled by intuition a well walked path for me.
For the first time I feel comfortable attempting to learn how they are both parts to a whole because I have someone here now to correct me when I am wrong. Its hard to learn when all you can do is question your own understanding...


Birds

PS Lavender, I spent an hour last night trying to copy that blueprint picture you posted awhile ago...my goodness, forest for the trees! I had to settle for the flower

Ok, I'm going to be a little brave...so you understand how deep my intuition goes...you can see how from numerology to the intp right through to my astrological make-up that I walk well within the world of the 11.
I channel, much akin to Mr. John Edwards of Crossing Over. I have for years (started around age 6). It has given me an underlying massive desire to understand how and why according to science. I channel everything from plants to animals, future and past, the here and now, houses, chairs, the ground...I don't always understand the language but I know its there, see it's identity/signature.
Often times I feel like a big tuning fork, definitely accentuates my reclusive nature!
I can also say this too, it has given me more peace through understanding than the average person has the right to ask for. For this I am thankful. After all, doesn't understanding facilitate acceptance...proof is in the pudding.
It has driven me to reach out for common ground with others through this need to understand and as a result I have run into




Never could a person again, ask for more, never could I get a better group of people to take me by the hand and befriend me. You are all so darn interesting!!!!!

'I am saying that photons are only created by accelerated charged particles and do not need a medium in which to propagate since the photon is simply a change in the position of the field surrounding all charged particles. Suppose that the only thing created by the BB was a single proton. The proton's field would start expanding creating space time. Now suppose some force suddenly shifted the proton. It's field would start expanding again and the difference between the old still expanding field and the new expanding field is what we call a photon.'


I copied this bit of a post from another forum, it is definitely food for thought...

Birds

Prettybirds wrote:

'I am saying that photons are only created by accelerated charged particles and do not need a medium in which to propagate since the photon is simply a change in the position of the field surrounding all charged particles. Suppose that the only thing created by the BB was a single proton. The proton's field would start expanding creating space time. Now suppose some force suddenly shifted the proton. It's field would start expanding again and the difference between the old still expanding field and the new expanding field is what we call a photon.'

I do not follow this. Is it discussing photons or protons - quite different things, and what is the BB? Photons indeed do not need a medium in which to propagate, unlike sound.

Hi Romana, BB is Big Bang and the proton is supposedly the first thing created out of the BB and it carried the first timeline. They are saying this timeline expands. As it is expanding, if jarred (as in a planet and asteroid) or altered in a significant way (perhaps size/weight or composition) as to effect its wave, in place of the old timeline will be a photon, a junction if you will, and the new state/wave/line will head off to the next experience.
I hope this helps, I am going to gather info about this and will post as I go...you know me and lines...

Glad to see you Romana...

Birds

Out of this post...it is the photon that interests me. So, a photon does have one language that I am aware of....light. What else can it 'say'? Are photons all the same, are they doing more than just emitting light?

A photon, according to this post, is a sign of a junction between to things (elements?). I wonder if we could look at that photon as a marker of what has transpired before the junction, and if so, what is recorded in it.
What does the photon really represent in this scenario?

prettybirds wrote:

The work of Japanese researcher Masaru Emoto, author of The Hidden Messages in Water, is featured to show how thoughts change the structure of ice crystals--beautiful crystals form in a glass of water with the word "love" taped to it, whereas playing: Elvis's "Heartbreak Hotel" causes other crystals to split in two. Would his "Burnin' Love" boil water?

I'm really curious as to whats up with this, I think I'll look for some material on it....curious people can be so interesting,,,the things they do...

Assuming I understand the description, this experiment is comparing apples and oranges. One glass merely has a word taped on it, while the other is in the presence of music playing? Assuming sufficient volume, the sound vibrations may very well have an effect on how the ice crystals grew. Also, the tape and paper on the first glass may block out some of the light, causing less to be absorbed by the crystallizing ice (I would guess a less significant effect).

prettybirds wrote:

The wave of the singular electron in the hydrophobic pocket of the microtubule is by itself too small to effect the next electron over without a mechanism like Hameroff's. That it is the severing of the ATP and GTP that gives the energy boost to the wave that travels through the MAPS from one electron to another in Hameroff's theory.

The wave is too small, or the distance is too great.

prettybirds wrote:

So this is what I'm wondering...if the energy that comes from the severed molecules is what carries the 'wave' onward and outward, how does it do it. Is it a chemical blueprint that effects the next electron or is it a vibrational blueprint that registers.

If the wave of the electron is going to be carried anywhere, that suggests that the electron itself may also be carried, or at least has a nonzero probability of being found in the remote position. While this may be mathematically finite, it is extremely unlikely. Furthermore, molecules are already starting to be rather large to describe in quantum terms. I do not see a mechanism by which this wave or energy transfer could occur. If there is one, it has yet to be found or demonstrated.

prettybirds wrote:

Spent some time today looking into ATP and here is a beautiful article that totally explains Hameroff's interest in it...

http://www.trueorigin.org/atp.asp

The Creation Research Society may not have much credibility in scientific circles, though aside of the ideology in the introduction and conclusion, this article seems just a summary of basic biochemistry.

I am still going through the quantumconsciousness.org article. It does not describe (yet) what causes the switching of the states of the tubulin molecules, or how the switch affects or is "noticed" by . . . anything else.

More later.

Hi Romana , where do I start.....

IMO you are right about the sound-light interaction...I copied this off a post on another forum to expand abit on this interaction...

"Scientists first to trap light and sound vibrations together in nanocrystal

Researchers at the California Institute of Technology have created a nanoscale crystal device that, for the first time, allows scientists to confine both light and sound vibrations in the same tiny space.

"This is a whole new concept," notes Oskar Painter, associate professor of applied physics at Caltech. Painter is the principal investigator on the paper describing the work, which was published this week in the online edition of the journal Nature. "People have known how to manipulate light, and they've known how to manipulate sound. But they hadn't realized that we can manipulate both at the same time, and that the waves will interact very strongly within this single structure."

Indeed, Painter points out, the interactions between sound and light in this device—dubbed an optomechanical crystal—can result in mechanical vibrations with frequencies as high as tens of gigahertz, or 10 billion cycles per second. Being able to achieve such frequencies, he explains, gives these devices the ability to send large amounts of information, and opens up a wide array of potential applications—everything from lightwave communication systems to biosensors capable of detecting (or weighing) a single macromolecule. It could also, Painter says, be used as a research tool by scientists studying nanomechanics. "These structures would give a mass sensitivity that would rival conventional nanoelectromechanical systems because light in these structures is more sensitive to motion than a conventional electrical system is."

"And all of this," he adds, "can be done on a silicon microchip."

Optomechanical crystals focus on the most basic units—or quanta—of light and sound. (These are called photons and phonons, respectively.) As Painter notes, there has been a rich history of research into both photonic and phononic crystals, which use tiny energy traps called bandgaps to capture quanta of light or sound within their structures.

What hadn't been done before was to put those two types of crystals together and see what they are capable of doing. That is what the Caltech team has done.

"We now have the ability to manipulate sound and light in the same nanoplatform, and are able to interconvert energy between the two systems," says Painter. "And we can engineer these in nearly limitless ways."

The volume in which the light and sound are simultaneously confined is more than 100,000 times smaller than that of a human cell, notes Caltech graduate student Matt Eichenfield, the paper's first author. "This does two things," he says. "First, the interactions of the light and sound get stronger as the volume to which they are confined decreases. Second, the amount of mass that has to move to create the sound wave gets smaller as the volume decreases. We made the volume in which the light and sound live so small that the mass that vibrates to make the sound is about ten times less than a trillionth of a gram."

Eichenfield points out that, in addition to measuring high-frequency sound waves, the team demonstrated that it's actually possible to produce these waves using only light. "We can now convert light waves into microwave-frequency sound waves on the surface of a silicon microchip," he says.

These sound waves, he adds, are analogous to the light waves of a laser. "The way we have designed the system makes it possible to use these sound waves by routing them around on the chip, and making them interact with other on-chip systems. And, of course, we can then detect all these interactions again by using the light. Essentially, optomechanical crystals provide a whole new on-chip architecture in which light can generate, interact with, and detect high-frequency sound waves."

These optomechanical crystals were created as an offshoot of previous work done by Painter and colleagues on a nanoscale "zipper cavity," in which the mechanical properties of light and its interactions with motion were strengthened and enhanced.

Like the zipper cavity, optomechanical crystals trap light; the difference is that the crystals trap—and intensify—sound waves, as well. Similarly, while the zipper cavities worked by funneling the light into the gap between two nanobeams—allowing the researchers to detect the beams' motion relative to one another—optomechanical crystals work on an even tinier scale, trapping both light and sound within a single nanobeam.

"Here we can actually see very small vibrations of sound trapped well inside a single 'string,' using the light trapped inside that string," says Eichenfield. "Importantly, although the method of sensing the motion is very different, we didn't lose the exquisite sensitivity to motion that the zipper had. We were able to keep the sensitivity to motion high while making another huge leap down in mass."

"As a technology, optomechanical crystals provide a platform on which to create planar circuits of sound and light," says Kerry Vahala, the Ted and Ginger Jenkins Professor of Information Science and Technology and professor of applied physics, and coauthor on the Nature paper. "These circuits can include an array of functions for generation, detection, and control. Moreover," he says, "optomechanical crystal structures are fabricated using materials and tools that are similar to those found in the semiconductor and photonics industries. Collectively, this means that phonons have joined photons and electrons as possible ways to manipulate and process information on a chip."

And these information-processing possibilities are well within reach, notes Painter. "It's not one plus one equals two, but one plus one equals ten in terms of what you can do with these things. All of these applications are much closer than they were before."

"This novel approach to bringing both light and sound together and letting them play off of each other exemplifies the forward-thinking work being done by the Engineering and Applied Science (EAS) division," says Ares Rosakis, chair of EAS and Theodore von Kármán Professor of Aeronautics and Mechanical Engineering at Caltech.

More information: "Optomechanical crystals," Nature.

http://www.physorg.com/news175766229.html

So, the light emitted from the photon is producing a language when it comes into contact with sound...
Yes, the tape would effect the light and thus effect the outcome...I haven't visited this website yet but it is about this experiment...
http://www.explorejournal.com/article/S155...0327-2/fulltext
What I wonder, if this is true about a thought vibration also being able to interact with the photon.
What a huge concept to wrap my head around! If this is so...every different vibration could be a word in the photons language, perhaps even a whole separate language full of words.

Next, I have to wonder is when the electron supposedly gets trapped in its hydrophobic pocket, is it being in effect, slowed down and perhaps emitting light bearing photons as a result? Could it be that the consciousness per say is conveyed in the photons power of communication as opposed to a quantum effect like Hameroff's.

I don't even know if photon emitting light is considered quantum or not. Is it?

here comes the anti-frantic one!

i think i have read this stuff.
i can think of some highly efficient use of this discovery: ~~~~~
but alas, it's much ado and all can trust the ceteris paribus rule prohibiting the much needed revolution!
did they get their prized research patented yet?

now, call me a spoil sport!




p.s. naturally, i would rather "stand corrected"....

Romana wrote, ( I'll figure out the quote thing sometime)
If the wave of the electron is going to be carried anywhere, that suggests that the electron itself may also be carried, or at least has a nonzero probability of being found in the remote position. While this may be mathematically finite, it is extremely unlikely.

I had understood the 'wave' was simply responsible for the starting of a chain of events, not being the chain of events...thus the electron can be left in the hydrophobic pocket. However, if it must also go, could super positioning somehow come into play?



Romana wrote,
'Furthermore, molecules are already starting to be rather large to describe in quantum terms. I do not see a mechanism by which this wave or energy transfer could occur. If there is one, it has yet to be found or demonstrated.'

Here is a simple one for you Is a photon a molecule? Is it to big for quantum effect?
What appealed to me about the ATP description is simply the way it was written, I could understand it...as to the site's intent, let 'em have at it eh?

Romana wrote,
'I am still going through the quantumconsciousness.org article. It does not describe (yet) what causes the switching of the states of the tubulin molecules, or how the switch affects or is "noticed" by . . . anything else.'

First I want to think any molecule that can get into the hydrophobic pocket can cause a switch, does it sound like I understood you?
As for noticing....could it be a photonic reaction that is registered in things like ATP.

Prettybirds wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biophoton

WOW Lavender...THANK-YOU!

Many, many thanks to both of you for having patience with me as I catch up....

I just wikied Ceteris paribus.......so much to learn....so much to love

So it could be be a combination of vibration and chemical reaction both expressed/brought into existence, through the light emitting photon and its reaction to its environment and scope as defined by its strength.....to cool.....do you have any idea how long I have waited for someone to talk about this stuff with someone knowledgeable in this stuff so they could correct me and teach me? As you have said before....better late than never....and I add...WORTH the wait!

Prettybirds wrote:

I just wikied Ceteris paribus.......so much to learn....so much to love

eh?

Prettybirds wrote:

I had understood the 'wave' was simply responsible for the starting of a chain of events, not being the chain of events...thus the electron can be left in the hydrophobic pocket. However, if it must also go, could super positioning somehow come into play?

The wave function of an electron is the mathematical representation of the fact that the position of the electron cannot be precisely known. The wavefunction gives the probability of the electron's presence as a function of position. When a measurement is made, the electron is finally localized in some specific place, though at the cost of knowledge of its momentum - the uncertainty principle. The wavefunction is formed from a superposition of all the possible locations of the electron, each multiplied by a weighting factor indicating how likely it is that the electron is in that location. "Superposition" in the quantum sense means that a particle simultaneously has many different and apparently contradictory values for a single property (e.g. it is in many places at one time).

prettybirds wrote:

Here is a simple one for you Is a photon a molecule? Is it to big for quantum effect? What appealed to me about the ATP description is simply the way it was written, I could understand it...as to the site's intent, let 'em have at it eh?

A photon is decidedly not a molecule, or an atom, or an electron. Everything in the physical universe is either matter or energy. Matter is further categorized into the three states (excluding plasmas): solid, liquid, and gas. These have obvious correspondence to the four elements of antiquity: earth, water, air, and fire. Photons are energy, not matter, even though they are often described as behaving like particles (quanta of light). They do not give off light, they ARE light, just as phonons are sound. Photons can be given off by matter, as it releases energy previously stored somehow. Photons can be described quantum mechanically, though this is not necessary for most practical calculations involving them (e.g. modelling laser behavior).

prettybirds wrote:

First I want to think any molecule that can get into the hydrophobic pocket can cause a switch, does it sound like I understood you?
As for noticing....could it be a photonic reaction that is registered in things like ATP.

I am not sure I understand this question. If the hydrophobic pocket usually houses a single electron, space is probably too limited for a molecule of any size to enter. It is unlikely that any photons are released by the electron, since the amount of energy involved is probably too small. The energy exchanged is more likely chemical, not light.

As for the article from California Institute of Technology, I see that it is relatively recent. Interaction of light and sound has been understood and exploited for some time, though. The example with which I am most familiar is acousto-optic devices like q-switches and modulators. In these, an acoustic wave is formed in a crystal, and used to deflect an optical beam. By deflecting the beam out of a laser cavity, for instance, lasing can be terminated very quickly, and then restarted by turning off the RF source that produces the acoustic field. See this wikipedia article below for details: A-O Modulators

There must be more to what the CIT people are doing. The idea of light producing sound is certainly new to me. Interesting things tend to happen when one operates on the nano-scale.

Romana wrote,
The wave function of an electron is the mathematical representation of the fact that the position of the electron cannot be precisely known. The wavefunction gives the probability of the electron's presence as a function of position. When a measurement is made, the electron is finally localized in some specific place, though at the cost of knowledge of its momentum - the uncertainty principle. The wavefunction is formed from a superposition of all the possible locations of the electron, each multiplied by a weighting factor indicating how likely it is that the electron is in that location. "Superposition" in the quantum sense means that a particle simultaneously has many different and apparently contradictory values for a single property (e.g. it is in many places at one time).

Would it be a safe analogy to say that a monk/mystic understand lines by simply the aftereffect of their being, and scientists understand electrons the same way...no one has ever seen one but they know its there because of its effect...like dark matter?

I think I understand why the electron would have to be in it. The wave is the measurement of the electron itself. So where there is a wave there is an electron...hence it not being in the hydrophobic pocket, it would go with the wave, be the wave. So that leaves me at wondering if it is communication between different electrons as in a chemical reaction initiated from an electron that plays out across the brain encouraging other electrons to behave in the same way the initial one did.
If it was the actual electron that followed its wave around/ was the wave, it would lose to much momentum to fully realize a thought. I think I might be beginning to understand why its too small, why people like Hameroff are looking at it as a catalyst, the energy in thought production would theoretically drain the electron of its stored energy reducing its potential if it had to also move as in it own particular wave playing out across the brain? Restricting its ability to be anything.
Or that there is not enough energy released in that electron when slowed down by a molecule to stimulate chemical reaction...all though that doesn't really sit well with me, perhaps because don't I really get it yet...not enough photonic release to stimulate effect. I wonder if it is just that our measuring equipment is at fault more than the theory?

PS, Honey as a 39 year old who needed to ask what a photon was...well there is nothing you couldn't ask me...no fear!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.tutorvista.com/science-help